Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

     The whites that cause the ill view of whites in Rastafari are the ones who are rich, and who are looking for excuses to smoke the herb, and to go off and use it for fashion. The ones who cause the problem are the ones that use it to get at their parents for some reason. And of course the ones that uise it for profet and sell merchandise of Rastafari and Reggae. All this has imbeded this image on all white rastas making them seem like they "are" Rasta for the same reason. Causeing the few true white Rastas take the punishment and making it imposible for many to take them serious.

We need to get past this race illusion and look at people as individuals before race. Although I am proud to be white, Jah Jah gave me this heritage and i am not going to deny it. I curse the people who manipulate the bible, enslave the people, and start wars, but i am not them, and many whites arent them. I hope you all see me and others as who they are and not what skin tone they have.

Bless
Ryan

No matter the color of skin, Rastafari knows when one is dealing with the heights of Sellassie I or is an imposter. I don't see any white Rastafari taking punishment for anything, by your works ye shall get your pay.. no one needs validation to hail Sellassie I so therefore there is no punishment for skin color in Rastafari.
I can't blame black Rastafari to be skeptical of white people coming and claiming Rastafari and searching for acceptance. It's not only the rich white Rastas that create the common view of white Rasta.. Rastafari is AFRICA first, and many ones don't live for HER, and yet are attracted to the royalty of Rastafari's appearance so they will wear the crown and the apparel without doing the works.  
Only more guidance and love on your journey
Blessed

It is easy for you to say that only certain whites are the problem. The reality is that all whites are inculcated with superiority complexes. And as a white person you benefit materially from the oppression and exploitation of Black people.

It is easy for you to say that race is an illusion because you benefit from white skin privilege and have little or no understanding of the reality that Black people (especially the darkskinned/kinky haired ones) face in their day to day living.

You will do good to read the following:

No Colorless Rasta Movement: http://www.rastaspeaks.com/articles/18082003.html
Moral Degradation of White Privilege: http://www.rastaspeaks.com/articles/06082003.html
Racism and Distortions: http://www.rastaspeaks.com/articles/2004/1301.html

and then you've got ones like this who say they are rasta..
Jah knows

Blessings Ryan.  It is good to see ya here and open minded to learning from the well educated brethren and sistren on this site that I have had the privledge of getting to know throughout the last year.

Ryan , this site, if you properly benefit from it with an open mind and heart will allow you to see things that are rooted within your consciousness you don't even know are there.  INI never did consider myself a racist, and I still do not say that I was necessarily, but I held many views that were products of racism - and I am willing to bet you do, as well, tough though that may be to admit at first.  To realize that blacks are oppressed is easy, to realize how and that we benefit from it is what is not easy.  In fact, it's painful.

Even though you & I may not be the direct cause, or indeed even our ancestors may not (I don't know in your case or not), as long as Babylon is the way it is, we gather benefits from having white skin - and we can't simply turn them away - society has already granted them.  We're not racially profiled.  We're not classified in school without already having performed.  We're not given fake laws like affirmative action that only affirms that change is needed so badly they have to make false laws to attempt to promote it.  

Further, the last thing you'll come to realize is that this world has made absolutely no strides in race relations at all and many people you may know and respect are just as racist as the whites years ago that promoted segregation, they only hide it better...I am not writing to move you to guilt, and neither are ones here necessarily, but INI will assure ya that you're consciousness will rise here.

Peace.

everything

and there isn't anything that will be hidden from El Shaddai our God.  (eccl 12:14)

raspek
who needs to get past what you call the racial illusion. what illusion? how old are you my yute.

"Causeing the few true white Rastas take the punishment and making it imposible for many to take them serious.
"
how di i gonna chat true rastas and you say race is an illusion. wan take a field trip. meet i on the corner of minnesota ave s.e. and benning rd s.e. and lets take a walking field trip into the benefits of this illusion you ah speak of.

illusion. them hours i spent in that jail cell for fitting the description would have to be emmy nominated. copperfield dont have anything on them boys. ohhhhh that night when i&i friends were pulled out the car by them 10 officers because there was a robbery in the area and we might be the ones cause you know we looked like some robbers. illusion.

blessed same way

p.s. the field trip can be scheduled for any time due to it being a 24/7 shituation.

I'm always very suspicious about generalizations.

I'm not saying that white privilege inexists, but the sentence above seems a bit out of reality.

reality and idealism is different. And reality is relative and not absolute. An absolutist mind will lead to ilusions and not to reality.

Still it's possible to see and understand a generalizations towards whites.

One thing I check when studying relations among nations: Majority of people tend to dislike the US for their imperialism (like any powerful nation who eventually goes into this kind of project). But the strangest thing is how the vast majority of nations are always looking for $ help from the US which seems to be the ones who know how to make $ in this world we live in and that no project will go on without $. So, what's the point.

I understand africans need first to reorganize themselves internally before they can spread their relations, but are africans waiting to do things alone? If so, this must be really a powerful plan as I don't see nations beeing able to live by themselves if they don't have international partners to work.

If I suppose that all whites are evil should I suppose that all blacks are devine?

May the light shine and people live...

Are there people in the world that are not looking for: the right for living, freedom and power?

Are we going to live eternally in this struggle among nations or we have other plans for humanity?

Mandingo

The U.S. and other G-8 countries have established the same ecnomic vampire system(capitalism) through force and covert action in the countries they have "colonized" and since these countries have not had a revolution and done away with capitalism(IMF, World bank, globalization "free" trade), the same puppet leaders(usually put in power or given a seal of approval, or bullied into submission) have to ask for money from the U.S.(and her cronies) the same money that was actually derived from the natural resources and land of the PEOPLE in the first place. The U.S. isn't good at "making" money. It is good at sucking the life blood out of less powerful nations and people for the U.S. and G-8 countries.

Until the PEOPLE organize then this vampire system will continue. If any place on earth could be self sufficient it would be African with it's vast natural resources...Cuba is self sufficient, it has no I.M.F debt either....Self sufficient doesn't mean no trade with other countries....It means your resources aren't getting exploited/robbed from you to benefit the oppressor elites abroad..instead they benefit the masses of people within....It is also no coincidence Cuba has no debt and ISN'T capitalist.

The point is self-determination and liberation. I would rather be poor and free than a rich slave.

The only person that can free the slave is the slave. Africa and Africans globally must organize unite and free ourselves...

Until all nations of people sit equally at the table, and not just sit at the table but dine from it, there will be struggle...la luta continua...

I hope you are addressing some of these questions to the oppressor elites, and not to the oppressed...To ask the oppressed to move on to bigger and better things, when they haven't got the monkey of exploitation and oppression off of their backs is insulting.

correction...I meant  to say "when we haven't got the monkey of exploitation and oppression off of our backs"...

Your views and opinions are so stereotypical of White knee jerking naïve or denialist rhetoric. It's quite old now, but a classic from you.  Any so-called "Afrocentrist" with a half-wit would know that the emphasis on political, economical and cultural development of Europeans and Euro-Americans (Chinese, Japanese, Hindu, and Arabs likewise) has always been NATIONALIST. Western powers emerged as the foremost industrial empires by preventing traders of non-White nations from increasing their commercial interests. They did and continue to do so by exploiting rivalries between different tribes and ethnic groups in those nations, imposing Christianity, European languages, European laws and administration for the sole benefit of their Western countries economies. Therefore, Black nations, people and communities on this planet should aslo NOT use assimilationist policies anywhere on earth!  We too MUST use Nationalism to ward off NEO-COLONIALISM, the recurrent Western and Semitic invasions, aggressions and religious hypocrisy.    


The first sentence above is a very asinine comment. Are you missing the point deliberately? Trying to cover it up with a silly diversion? Or are you really this dull? Militant Black Nationalism is not racism! Revolutionary Black Nationalism is an ideological short and long rage program for Blacks to claim their fair rights and JUSTICE in a brainwashing, racist and segregationist world dominated by White people! It has nothing to do with White hatred or the belief that Black people are Gods. Certainly you do pray to the image of a mulatto Black/Semitic God, do you not? So, your argument is mute and utterly hypocritical.


B.K

My point is the oposition of this two realities of nationalism and globalism. By globalism I mean to be open to trade and money resources (at least) if culturally is not the point.

I`m not sure a country can survive alone in this days (and I live in a huge country wich is Brazil). Now, the point of fighting for better conditions to us doesn`t necesseraly mean to be against others or to be excludent.

Regarding cuba, I`m not sure it would have survived without the USSR during the cold war times and now it is all open to foreign investments.

I`m not a US follower but I surelly don`t want to directly opose it and when i talk about us I talk about a politic representation and not all US citizens.

The point is the confrontation between nationalism and globalism (again using this term i`m not refering to a vampire system - for everything has utility for the ones who know how to use things, as we are now here taking advantage of a US military technology to comunicate from long distances and beeing able to strengh one another...

It`s easy to say down babylon, but what are the ways, out of the intelectual speculations....

And regarding all white people beeing devil representers and all blacks beeing pure and clean... come on, please!!!

Mandingo.

The way is mass organization...that's the only way. Organization of the masses of African people and political ideological training.

Marcus Garvey, Osagyefo Kwame Nkrumah, and Seko Ture had the answer.

And why did you even ask the question about Blacks being pure and white's being devil representers if you didn't mean it? That kind of silly commenting, when people are discussing serious issues about mass human suffering is not cute! I ignored it the first time around, but then you have the nerve to say "oh please" when Kelani points out how assinine it was(which is only fair for her to do so)...I hope you aren't trying to make light of African people's global struggle?  

It looks like i'm sounding like defending all invasions and barbarism (and new ones to come).

I'm certainly not trying to be desrespectful or a distractor. If I came here to reason is because I feel there are important things to learn.

But sometimes I feel this reasoning over how this capitalist empire is evil and how whites are helpless sounds more intelectual and idealistic then practical.

Not beeing in favor doesn't mean beeing against. I have no intentions of moving to africa and no intention of beeing black, as I'm not, but I do feel I can listen, learn and improve, love and share with a range of different people (or are we not humans who dispite the diference of conditions and realites, share similarities and a common origin ?

I'm trying to understand what is the point here: africa and rasta is for blacks and whites should be ignored and keept distant...and if they do honestly wish to help this cause they should be helping to implode this evil system among other whites....that's it ???

And if whites look for power, who doesn't (in the different ways that it will be expressed according to different cultures and life interpretations)

Just a last question, what is assinin ?

Mandingo

Mandingo, I thought the I was black this whole time.  You live in Brazil...are you Brazillian & of hispanic origin or white?  Alone curiousity.

If you are not working for the people, you are working for the enemy, there is no middle ground.

I'm not quite understanding your reasoning on the Black/White dicotomy your conversation seems to be trapped in. But I do know there is plenty of work to be done for the masses of people in Brazil. The only people that think the anti-capitalist pro-people ideology is strictly intellectual are those that are not involved in the processes to make it a reality. If you feel left out in some way because you are not African/Black...there are plenty of anti-capitalist movements that are multi-ethnic or European/White in membership. European/Whites are exploited also, but they are not oppressed, and their elites are organized which gives them colour privilage. Socialism is for everyone. African/Black Nationalism is something that has to be developed by people of African/Black heritage. We must do our homework and be liberated before we can even consider anything beyond that. Our own liberation has to be priority #1. What good are we to any other cause if we are not free? I do not claim Rasta, so that question will have to be taken up with someone coming from that ideology.

asinine: Utterly stupid or silly: asinine behavior.
Of, relating to, or resembling an ass

(I keep the root word "ass" in my spelling of the word for obvious reasons)

Question: If you are not of African heritage why is your name Mandingo? Do you realize you are taking on the Europeanized spelling/pronunciation of the Mandinka people of what is now the Gambia - Senegal - Guinea Bissau area of West Africa? Isn't that just a little dissrespectful, and at the very least, misleading and strange?

|Thus why I thought he was Afrikan|  misleading - yes.

And I am really hoping it has no connection with the sexual connotaton the word Mandingo has aquired during and after chattel slavery! :o >:( I'll wait for his response prior to ass-uming anything...lol...

Sorry for the late response,

I was with no acess to internet for a couple of days.

Let's see the answers to the questions:

I'm a mixed person with hispanic, indian ans black origins and I look like a brown arab.

The world Mandingo that I use comes for my tradition with Capoeira and this surviving world has taken many connotations in the capoeira field, meaning more commonly something like "mystic". No sexual conotations or a trying to abuse the world.

About my point with blacks anbd whites:

Why Selassie I went to the league of the nations to ask for international intervention when invaded by Mssolini? Whe say that ethiopia is the only nation in africa that didin't suffer intervention, but how would it be without the english to help HIM?

I know how brazil need social works, specially to the black and poor, now to say in brazil who is black is not that easy as there was really interbreeding among races (sexually and culturaLLy) here. We are developing the works of the Ethiopian World Federation Inc down here and is the only and first people and place trying to do it in South America.

Well, if this virtual village doen't acept whites or mixed ones in duscussions and works is other point.

I come here wiht respect, with doubts and questions and looking forward to learn...

But if people here are useless in the point that can't reason (in a reasoning forum) and have to be agressive with vulgar vocabulary shows to me the end of the arguments of people who don't really have much to say but to play victims and try to be ofensive constructing nothing but an intelectual prison.

reason over the arguments, but to resume things trying to insult me, saying i'm a assinin and with no more arguments at all....

you really look like helpless people an I can see more clear now why you suffer and feel exploited.

I'm sorry you are miserable, arrogant and incapable of reasoning out of your dogmas.

Just put an anouncement on the main page saying that non-blac people are not acepted and people should come here just to learn to repeat synthetic ideas and not to develop reasoning over all different aspects of a point and to be able to make a bigger picture using reason and logic and not passion and revolt.

Still I believe there are serious people here and htat's why I still come here, as a whole I respect the place, but i'm sorry for the idiots. If I thought this wasn't a place to reason and grow why would I come here? I have moere to do then to try to be a distractor of a forum in a site in the internet.

Mandingo.

"I'm a mixed person with hispanic, indian ans black origins and I look like a brown arab."

So therefore you ARE a person of African heritage! Why are you not identifying yourself as such? Confusion...

"The world Mandingo that I use comes for my tradition with Capoeira and this surviving world has taken many connotations in the capoeira field, meaning more commonly something like "mystic". No sexual conotations or a trying to abuse the world."

That's good, thanks for explaining.

"Why Selassie I went to the league of the nations to ask for international intervention when invaded by Mssolini? Whe say that ethiopia is the only nation in africa that didin't suffer intervention, but how would it be without the english to help HIM?"

Ethiopia wasn't officially colonized...And many people are critical of Selassie going to England for help.

"I know how brazil need social works, specially to the black and poor, now to say in brazil who is black is not that easy as there was really interbreeding among races (sexually and culturaLLy) here. We are developing the works of the Ethiopian World Federation Inc down here and is the only and first people and place trying to do it in South America."

A lot of South American and Carribbean countries have people of African mixed with "other" heritage that don't want to be called Black similar identity issues exist in the Dominican republic and other places(and used to here)...I see it as confusion.(Personally I refer to myself as an African in America, not Black, there is no Black land, and since we come in all different hues...on the Continent and in the diaspora...the idea of being an a person of African heritage seems more logical than playing the oppressors colour game) . If you look at the socio-economic stratification of wealth in these countries there is always the European/White elite at the top, and the Brown/Indigenous and Black/African at the bottom. That is not a coincidence, but is a result of the caste system set up by the European Capitalist Elites. I doubt the elite in Brazil have a problem identifying who is Black. It seems to be a situation of many people trying to escape their Africaness, if only in description, even though it is not socially a realistic option(the oppression and exploitation remains). I understand that there may be a more subtle racial tone in many places compared to the U.S., but the fact that one has other ethnic/racial heritages may effect the DNA but doesn't effect the historical, economic, and social
circumstances to the point of the African heritage not being the prime determining factor of ones life circumstances (if phenotypically visible, and I am talking about the masses of people here) Colorism does of course also exist, and those of lighter hues tend to have priveledges in the capitalist caste system...but they are still oppressed and exploited because of their African heritage...So what's the point of "re-labelling" your/ourselves as others(A.K.A. not Black/African)?...Our reality is that of one.

"Well, if this virtual village doen't acept whites or mixed ones in duscussions and works is other point."

Who said that this virtual village doesn't? I'll name names. I almost always like what Iyah 360 has to say.

"I come here with respect, with doubts and questions and looking forward to learn...

Don't we all?

But if people here are useless in the point that can't reason (in a reasoning forum) and have to be agressive with vulgar vocabulary shows to me the end of the arguments of people who don't really have much to say but to play victims and try to be ofensive constructing nothing but an intelectual prison.

Sorry but human oppression and exploitation makes some of us agressive. If we all aren't angry about the exploitation and oppression of the African(at home and abroad) masses, and the exploitation of the masses of humanity in general, something is wrong!

"reason over the arguments, but to resume things trying to insult me, saying i'm a assinin and with no more arguments at all...."

We said what you said was assinine...not that you were an ass. I thoroughly explained why I thought what you said was assinine. I've said assinine things too. This is an idiological debate, don't take it personally. But we do have to call it when we see it. If I said somethng assinine I would hope someone would feel free to tell me. I welcome the criticism, that's a good way to learn...

"you really look like helpless people an I can see more clear now why you suffer and feel exploited."

NOW YOU HAVE LOST ME!!! We are helpless? We feel exploited? Are you seriousely saying exploitation and oppression are in the POEPLE'S minds? Look around man. The PEOPLE are suffering! OUR PEOPLE are suffering!(That means your people too unless you are suffering from an us/them mentality) How can you say exploitation is a feeling? It is a reality for the majority of the planets population! NOBODY is helpless! What logic are you using to say such things? Please explain...

"I'm sorry you are miserable, arrogant and incapable of reasoning out of your dogmas."

Isn't this statement in direct contradiction with what you were just complaining about what you thought others were doing?

"Just put an anouncement on the main page saying that non-blac people are not acepted and people should come here just to learn to repeat synthetic ideas and not to develop reasoning over all different aspects of a point and to be able to make a bigger picture using reason and logic and not passion and revolt."

Everyone is welcome here... But don't expect things said not to be challenged when others don't agree with you. Revolutionaries revolt. I have passion for my PEOPLE. These are two possitives in my eyes. There are plently of non-African/Black people on this site who don't seem to be upset about discussing reality. I still haven't figured out what you are upset about besides the assinine comment) Who is repeating synthetic ideas? Why aren't you just reasoning and using logic with the ideas presented? Please explain what has been said(ideologically) that is bothering you so much...

"Still I believe there are serious people here and htat's why I still come here, as a whole I respect the place, but i'm sorry for the idiots. If I thought this wasn't a place to reason and grow why would I come here? I have moere to do then to try to be a distractor of a forum in a site in the internet."

Please explain what you think that was said that was idiotic, or better yet, who the idiots are? You want to reason supposedly but you aren't giving any ideas...Please contradict the supposed idiotic statements with some reasoning and logic instead of all this name calling.

Mandingo:
You surprising me with these statements man. How much you really reason with Congo Nya? Cos I know you could never have said such things to them, at least not Juliana and Anthony, it would have been pure fiya! Humble yourself and come again. P.S. check your messages, I gave you the idrens' numbers if you want to link them.
Oh and to briefly address a couple of things you said, you're either for amerikkka or against them, if you're Rasta then you're against them period, if you're not against them then you're for them and you're not Rasta. (Of course I'm not talking about the individual people in amerikkka).
And as for England and Ethiopia (this is both to you and Oshun_Auset): England only finally agreed to help Ethiopia when it was in England's interest to do so (when the Axis started messing with British "possessions"); and who else was His Majesty supposed to ask for help? Also he asked for help from the League of Nations, not specifically England.

it is probably true that England started to help Ethiopia(Abyssinia) when it was messing with it's interests - but there is the little known fact that Abyssinia had many contacts with Europe centuries past through the Knights Templars and other military orders. I would not doubt that fraternal bonds played some role in Abyssinia's place in this conflict.

Here is a link for starters:

http://sellassie.ourfamily.com/history/templars.html

I have appreciated your post Oshun_Auset, many thanks!!!

Let me see if I can make myself more clear:

I just dont think that the problem is whites x blacks, as you have pointed and I agree that the point is Europeans x africans, which is different from the beggining of this reasoning (the whites that cause the problem).

Still, I think that the problem is not even race, but a kind of mentality, imposed politics and or economy which I disagree to relate it to race but to people, so even if i'm not in favor of the american government I can't say i'm against europeans or whites (making generalizations) I see "whites" struggling for people's points and blacks defending colonialism.

All I wanted to point in this reasoning how I find nonsense to say that whites are the problem ( and I'm also making my homework checking history). the point is how to go over it.

Cuba was mentioned before in this reasoning as an example of revolution agains colonialism, and it was mainly a "white" revolution done bu two middle class men (che guevara - the argentinian doctor) and Fidel - who came from an elite family of cuba.

To define this reasoning in whites x blacks is too simplistic to me.

In brasil, people like the musician Gilberto Gil who know is minister of culture and others like pelé, just reminds me how no one remembers that they are "black" (in a pejorative sense), so this is relativity again, the africans in brazil who manage to make the money just go up socially and impose themselves...the problem that I see is the lack of examples or models of how this rich african should be and act, which reflects, to me, the need for cultural reference.

Anyway,Oshun, Many thanks for your level of reasoning and respect and let's keep reasoning as long as we feel we can grow together with that.

Blessings,

Mandingo.

You are a mixed African? Since when have you been appointed yourself a "multiracial" Black man? I recall you said on this baord being of American Indian and European heritage. You never spoke of yourself as being "multiracial" white mixed with Black or say anything about your African/Black heritage. Why? I think because in actuality you are probably a lot more non-Black than Black. It is really strange you never claimed your "Blackness" before..


Asinine means "silly". It is not profanity or a derogatory word. There is no English dictionary in Brazil? Stop whining.


I am sure you mean well for us Black folks in your heart when you say insulting things like that. For once you speak your mind honestly. I commend you for that.

You actually try to cry "racism" on this site? I mean, how nut is that? There are many fellow white members whom we respect Rootsie, Tracy, Iyah360 to name a few. So, how can you come here lying about this community despite all what you have seen in here? See people like you make me laugh, or make me sad actually. I see how you continue to spew emotional rhetoric to argue. You didn't know any brothers and sisters who can LOGICALLY challenge your beliefs and opinions, so your feelings are hurt. I however suggest you to contine debate radical Black Nationalists like Oshun-Auset and me in this very website or in real life to grow intellectually or in wisdom. Believe me, the lack of resistance produces weakness over time. This is the universal law of nature and humankind, plain and simple! You have been a member of this message board for a while now you should know that.

No one said that every white people couldn't talk about Black issues. We all have ideas or opinions, but when it's time for you to argue your positions, you should be ready to meet concurrence or dissent on these forums because most Blacks here refuse to have a lackey mentality. We have a right to be who we are as we are and talk honestly about our own reality! How can you claim to wanting fix our problems without wanting to talk about and not do anything to address those problems? Makes it look like you are more concerned with an "assimilationist" ideology for Blacks, which never gave us any power, over helpful solutions. As the saying goes, you Judge a tree by its fruit! You obviously have a romantic and naive view. I judge you by that. So, spare us this "humanist" image you are trying to pawn off. Me and other Black Nationalists here would have believed you a long time ago if it was not for the fact that you never have a racial agenda for Blacks.

The numerous incidents I read daily from many different news sources indicate that the social landscape the world over is racist as ever established and controlled by Europeans and Euro-American Colonization and neo-colonization since the 1500's! That is serious denial when with all what you read too, all what you see Black people experience EVERYDAY you still believe we are "helpless dithering idiots" for not shutting up, accepting our fate and complaining. How dare you to say such asinine (nonsense) things? Your attitude has always shocked me because by your conduct you are doing more damage than helping Blacks you claim to care.

Your emotional release type of people are people who just don't like to argue the hell we Black folks have been through back in our very inimitable not Black but White global supremacy experience, saying that "race" is a completely fictious idea, closing your eyes, plugging your ears, and never ever talking about white racism anymore thinking that it will simply go away and we all will live happily ever after. Your way of tackling racial problems is naïve and incompetent. It is taking away attention the evil we Blacks go through, our exploitation, abuse and humiliation in focus. Any sane Black Afrocentric person reading you would be appalled.


B.K

Greetings Gman,

Are you still in Brazil ?

I'm sorry but I haven't recieved the contact that you sent me, if you could do it by e-mail I would love (rasmandingo@reef.net).

Now, I have reasoned mainly with André, Sherwin, Lyson and Bongo, eventhough I have also reasoned a few times with Simba and Juliana.

We had like 4 months together and was great.

I have reasoned this all with them. It was just great and there was much fire going on.

Juliana and sherwin at first didn't want me around as I was not "full black" and as I used to work in a state company distributor of natural gas, as a journalist to make my living. I just keept respectfully forwarding my perceptions, listening to learn their own and just letting them realize how autentic was my desire to come together and reason.

I insist that the problem is not whites but a certainly dominant mentality that happens to be a weapon of european governments, but I can't forget how a lot of europeans were (and are still) fighting against the injsutices in their own land. And I found good reception to this idea among some of them.

I remember once reasoning with them about the race reasoning so commom in this board and I got as an answer from them, when asking how they felt about whites in rastafari that "Until the philosophy that holds one race superior and another inferior...." and we know the rest.

Again all the respect to you Gman and I hope we can meet if you are still in Brazil.

Mandingo

Give thanks for the link Iyah360!!!

Of course governments have first interests and lastly friends, but it's also true that alliances are done and bonds raise from that.

What country can survive today alone ???

All the blessings,

Mandingo

Hey Bantu,

This time I have to say that I loved you response. Many thanks for that!!!

Now, answers

I remember mentining my family roots before and from my memory I mentioned I had this mixed origin. Mother's family - blacks and arabs. Father's side - Spanish;portuguese, Indians....

Anyway, that's not the most important thing in this reasoning

I'm not saying that racism is an ilusion and questioning the generalization that all whites are racists even if they don't realize that. It can be the majority but it seems a problem to have absolutist perceptions of reality...even strategically speaking.

I'm not here to be a distractor to anything, but rather to contribute (why would I spend my time here then ???)

I'm not getting personal, I just really disagree that whites are the one who cause the problems....as there are yellows and blacks creating plenty problems as well.

I just want to reason and grow, not to explode, to destroy anything, but to develop and change perceptions and realities in the slowlly but surelly process of going out of the dark.

And strategically speaking, it's not necessary to be against somenthing if you are not in favor, check colonialistic strategies and you will see what I mean. Better to learn with this all and learn the oriental strategy from the martial arts who teach us to use the enemies' force against itself in a gentle and cool way...no need to use force, you see what I mean!!!

And I don't see we going anywhere just shouting down babylon and evil capitalist system.

There's a book which we can use a lot to learn new strategies to face this war, it's called the story of the capitalism (I don't remember now the author's name). By learning the oponent's mentality we can learn how to deal with it then.

Blessings and let's keep on the reasoning.

With respect,

Mandingo

You mentioned African states collaborating with neo-colonial powers like the United States, France, and Britain etc. They do so because they have no political rights. They follow their instructions from the Bushmen in Paris, London or the Whitehouse who continues to look at as us Blacks as slaves. The Western powers always interfere with the social and political development of third world countries. I am sure that the only justification that they give to themselves is that "these people will never develop a stable democratic system. They will always be ruled by dictators, so it might as well be our dictators, our puppets". It's time for you to face this fact. In Brazil, the US or European countries the house Negroes, the Blacks who continue to betray their own people in favor of recognition from their masters, have no freedom either. They are enslaved. A conscious Afrocentrist person cannot be in denial that primarily racists white men who are in positions of great material powers control the world. And even if the majority of White folks of today are not responsible for the institutions of oppression, there still are too much privilege on the White/Caucasian side of things, and too much oppression on the Black/African side to now be able to talk or think about a "colorblind" society.

Five hundred years of slavery, colonialism, oppression and stagnation of the Black race in Brazil is the same as the five hundred years of slavery, colonialism, oppression and stagnation of Blacks in the rest of American Continent, the Caribbean islands, and in Motherland Africa. We have the same root problem. White men are the common enemy of all of us. White imperialists are ONLY disliked because of beliefs and their domestic and foreign policy that violate the dignity and rights of dark-skinned people in every parts of the world, not because of their "race".

B.K

I'm appreciating this reasoning Bantu, give thanks!!!

I'm not talking about a colorblind society, I'm talking about the natural necessity for the societies to relate find ways of cooperating or at least coexist in the same world.

For me, the complaining over colonialism, neo-liberalism and imperialism as evil systems is the obvious part of this reasoning. What is it beyond it ???

There is always this conflict between realistics and idealistics...I wonder why HIM used to send ethiopians to the western countries to learn about their "modern technology" and to learn about anythhing tha could be useful to the best of the country interest.

Don't get me wrong, I know what you are talking about but how are we going to respond to this historical facts is ohter thing.

Even we here, using this US army technology, to learn, contribute, share and debate over the world historical events, you see.

There's good and bad in everyhting and usually the problem is in we that don't learn how to use the tools around us and prefer to keep crying the victims and staying there.


So I'm looking for a realistic reasoning over this historical facts avoiding dogmas and rixid perceptions.

Check the water, it doesn't have a rigid form but it never looses it's essence regardless of the recipient it is contained.

How are we going to flow in this reality we deal with, over the speculations and idealisms ???

With respect,

Mandingo

Racism is not historical. It is not only an occurrence of the past, it still exists today! It practiced openly by the majority of the Caucasian populace and encouraged by many businesses and political sectors in your country and in the rest of the world. Just because you are not the subject of racism does not mean that it is "historical".  So, what if we Black people acknowledge the lynching, killings, the imprisonments, the rapes, the miseducation and the way racism has been institutionalized in politics, government and economics...does that still make us having a "victim mentality"? If bitterness is our reality, should we remain delusional just to be positive? Personally, I have faced a lot of racism in my life to just be a quiet Negresse in order to be more pleasant to you or others. Acknowledging racism, being beaten by it and complaining about it doesn't make me a whiner or an indolent person. Despite me being strong and efforts, how am I supposed to plan a successful future for my people and me if Caucasians have shifted all the energies and resources from Blacks to the Caucasians, which enrich the Caucasians and impoverish Black people? Sure, the Jews can talk about the Holocaust and how they have been affected by it and how Israel is reparation for that tragedy. Hell, they can even get economic reparations for it too. But not us! We Blacks need to suck it up and stop complaining. Kind of hypocrite, don't you think?

IMO all this racial discrimination will end when balance between the races is established. This occurs when those wronged feel that they have been sufficiently compensated in whatever way that is consequential to them, and when those that have subjugated others, no longer do so!

B.K

"I just want to reason and grow, not to explode, to destroy anything, but to develop and change perceptions and realities in the slowlly but surelly process of going out of the dark.

And strategically speaking, it's not necessary to be against somenthing if you are not in favor, check colonialistic strategies and you will see what I mean. Better to learn with this all and learn the oriental strategy from the martial arts who teach us to use the enemies' force against itself in a gentle and cool way...no need to use force, you see what I mean!!!"

I want to reason and destroy many thing...slowly but surely is reform. I see our difference now in reasoning. You want reform. I want revolution. We were put in the dark abruptly, there was no slowly but surely tactics used when it came to colonizing and subjugating us, so I don't feel we will come out of it as African people using reform. Force was used on us, and "Power only backs down in the face of more power, that is the nature of power" -Malcolm X...The elite are an organized force with the ideology of capiltalism as a guide . The subjugated masses of African people can only fight the current conditions by being an organized force with a common Pan-African ideology. If you are not fighting against capitalism you are being used as an instrument to perpetualing it's injustice, even if one is unaware of it.

I don't see us going anywhere just chanting down Babylon either...we have to organize. Organization is the answer. Words without deeds are dead and empty.

Bantu Kelani is correct. Racism will end when a balance is achieved. A balance in power. We have and economic and social problem with a political solution. When Africans are a critically organized force, and achieve self-determination, and liberation, then any racism projected towards us will be moot.

Give thanks for the reply Bantu.

How do you think this balance will be achieved ?

From what you have pointed, I pressume, after financial compensation and end of wickdness...did I get right  ? How do you think this could take place ?

Just another thing, I feel reality in our countries are quite different, as in Brazil I feel a bigger inclination for looking for harmony and balance in relating with different races and sharing and assimilating cultural aspects of others who seems fine to you, brasilians are well open to cultures and we easilly assimilate what we find useful, reasonable with no problems, and this doesn't mean loosing your own reference but yet not beeing dogmatic or short minded...brazilians apreciate open minds and they don't care much for social rituals. Most of the blacks I know around consider themselves more brasilians then blacks and I even if I listen from them about reparations, I don't listen about repatriation.

What is the problem regarding racism ? Is the lack of respect that it envolves. How do we get this respect after centuries of slavery and dowpression ? The only way I see is developing and spreading information with culture. This is a way I see to get respect, to reeducate people and to change this ill mentality that sees one person superior then other. And for me, black superiority is as bad as white or anyone's superiority...that won't last long as any superiority is a fake.

Blessings,

Mandingo

Greetings Oshun...

How would you explain Ghandi and the non-violent revolution then ??? And I know that malcolm X was inspired by Ghandi and his movement as well.

No, I'm not a reformer, but what is a revolution really and who are the real revolutionaries ???

I won't engage in any activiy that invloves the opressive use of violence, I only use violence to defende myself form agression but not to atack. And I think this requires a lot more control of a person, I have been learning how to know my reactions and control my emotions in my last 9 years playing capoeira.

Mandingo.

Greetings Ras Mandingo(I apologize to everyone on the board I have ever responded to without first greeting and aknowledging them, that is very un-African of me, my fingers get ahead of my thoughts sometimes...)



Capitalism is an attack on humanity. Neo-colonialism, imperialism, oppression, and exploitation are agressive violent attacks, are they not? There is a daily oppressive use of violence by the elitite via the system they constructed to maintain control over the people's land and natural resources and exploit the fruits of our labour for the benefit of the few. Do you not see the daily sucking of the life blood of the people as an act of oppressive violence? Therefore revolution is self deffense. We are loosing more lives on a daily basis over time than we would in an organized revolution of the people. So is involuntary slow bleeding of the masses for the elite few better than voluntary revolutionary bleeding for our freedom(an actual beneficial purpose)? Slaves can't reform slavery, they must destroy it, and "Capitalism is the gentleman's slavery"-Osagyefo Kwame Nkrumah...the form may have changed, but the essence has remained the same. As spiritual people, we must deal with the essence of things.

As far as Ghandi goes. The threat of violence of the oppressed Indian masses of people(because they were organized) was what made his so-called peaceful revolution successful... Sometimes the threat of violence is enough because it is a display of the power that might have to be conteded with if challenged by the oppressor(This can also be seen in the fight for independence in Africa, although violence was used in many countries(Kenya and Zimbabwe for example), just the threat of future violence by an organized people in some areas caused the colonialists to pull out...unfortunately this was largely a pull out in form and not in essence because the oppressive political and economic systems of the former colonizers remained...A.K.A. capitalism...Malcolm understood this.  That is why organization is the key. No one man causes a revolution, it is an organized effort of the masses. We may have motivators and organizers that stand out as leaders, but mass organization is at the root of all successful social movements. We must study history through the eyes of the people. Not through the elitist version of history that likes to emphesize individuals to the point that the victories and movements of the PEOPLE are ignored or made insignificant.

Reform isn't a bad word. It just describes gradual change instead of a qualitative leap. Revolution is a qualitative leap by an organized movement. It is a change in essence, not a change in form. You are talking about reform. I am talking about revolution. Such was the difference between Malcolm and Martin, Garvey and Dubois(although Matin saw coincidentaly before his murder that the system capitlaism was largely the problem, and Dubois became a Pan-African socialist, abandoning integrationalist reform, and largely admitting that Garvey was correct).

So since you know the people are under attack every day, are you going to defend yourself/the people?

By the way...How do you plan to eliminate racism when it is a biproduct of/caused by capitalism, imperialism, and neo-colonialism. It is a necessary moral excuse and rationalization for the continued exploitation and oppression of the masses of people on the planet. Without eliminating the system that actually needs racism(as well as exploitation and oppression) to function(and this sytem created it in the first place), how are you going to get rid of said racism?...And how do you plan on doing it without organizing? Do you think their are benevolent slave masters who will one day have a change of heart and give power back to the slaves.  Doesn't that directly contradict their interests?

 Greetings Oshun Auset,

I support your position. I can feel your anger...

Greetings, Ras Mandingo

As a white man, I would like to share my humble opinions on some things that I have learned on this forum. I am still struggling to get a better understanding about how white racism and imperialism affects black people, but I think I have learned a few things. In the process I am also trying to help other whites to understand, something which is not always easy.

Philomena Essed defines racism as a global system of power relations, where the white group dominates the black group. This is opposed to the commonly held definition of racism as individual prejudice or discrimination based on skin color. Essed’s definition helps clarify a lot of things. Racism is not just individual prejudice and discrimination, but it is systemic. So there can be individual exceptions, but the generalizations about white people as a group still hold true. Racism does not need to be intentional at the individual level, in fact, most often it is not. A specific action is racist because of its consequences for black people, intentions are often irrelevant. Racism is often unconscious. It is part of the collective mentality or cultural ideology that white people have internalized. White people do not experience racism themselves, and usually have very limited understanding of it.

For example, American soldiers are mostly ordinary people, often poor ones. How can they abuse and kill Iraqi prisoners and civilians? How could they do exactly the same in Vietnam and other places? In my understanding, there is nothing “wrong” with these people at the individual level, other than the fact that they have unconsciously internalized the racist cultural ideology of America, where the non-white enemy has less value than animals.

White people are privileged relatively to blacks in this racist system, on the basis of skin color. We whites take many things for granted. Among these things is the Eurocentric assumption that we somehow know better, and that black people therefore should listen to us. For example, many white people who want to “save the world” still operate with this arrogant attitude. How come missionaries, aid workers or “peace negotiators” think they know something that non-white people do not already know? How come they think they are needed to save, help or teach Blacks? This is also part of our internalized white superiority complex. I am gradually becoming more and more aware of my own superiority assumptions, and trying to unlearn them.

I have seen many white people coming to this forum telling blacks “you have no right to be so aggressive and angry”. When I try to put myself in the black one’s position, I have no problem understanding how offensive and patronizing that behavior is. Indeed, it makes me angry as well.

Reverse racism does not exist. In the current system of racism, where the white group controls most of the worlds resources, economically, politically, militarily, culturally (media, education, church etc.), it is simply impossible for black people to oppress whites. I have learned that when black people are suspicious, angry or dismissive towards whites, it is a necessary defensive measure, to prevent being manipulated. History teaches black people that they cannot afford to trust whites. This does not imply that we whites are being discriminated against. It simply means we are denied our undeserved privileges. Trust is not something we are entitled to. It is a gift.

With respect,

Tian

"Racism is not just individual prejudice and discrimination, but it is systemic. So there can be individual exceptions, but the generalizations about white people as a group still hold true. Racism does not need to be intentional at the individual level, in fact, most often it is not. A specific action is racist because of its consequences for black people, intentions are often irrelevant. Racism is often unconscious. It is part of the collective mentality or cultural ideology that white people have internalized. White people do not experience racism themselves, and usually have very limited understanding of it."           - Tian  

There are many good points to consider, as they address some of the important issues concerning 'unconscious racism' seen displayed over and over amongst the general mindset, behaviours, and attitudes of most White people. An important point to also consider is the fact that most Whites have never even really felt nor experienced any of the serious levels of racism on a personal level, and are typically quite unaware and insensitive of how it all came to be, much less how they might also be contributers to it. I would agree that unconscous racisim is an internalized component in much of the Eurocentric cultural ideaology/mindset.

Good intentions do make a poor mask and come over mostly as disingenuous and patronizing at best.  Most lack any real first hand experience to truly understand how to genuinely deal with the root of the problem. It is often this poor behaviour that exibits itself by attempting to make everyone "feel better" while failing miserably to address any of the core subsitive issues.

White people are usually the first ones to make the call for a colorblind world. It is a position that mostly a White one can afford to say not having their own race considered as something less than inferior. Most cannot even begin to realize how saying something like that could be taken as insulting by most non-whites and often get quite defensive when it is.

It is often the mispercieved idea to try and equalize all the races into one generic race of non-color. In a weak attempt to once again disassociate any complicity into the root of racism the colorblind theory trys to skip over any form of accountability thereby releasing the debt. "I had nothing to do with what my ancestors did" is a typical form of denial that blinds one from seeing how they do indeed still benefit undeservedly from a system that continues to profit off the backs of non-whites.

Yet what many fail to realize is that those who suffer the worst abuses from the system are indeed the only ones qualified enough to set the guilty ones free. No degree of colorblindness will set the scales of justice straight. It is for this reason that those who choose to come into this place to seek spiritual guidance come to learn that they will not get over these things quite so easily but will always need the help of those most receptive to the social ills of society to keep themselves in order.

To think that one can get over this on their own serves only to buffer false illusions and will quickly shatter when up against the realities of those who suffer legitimate experiences. They will remain insensitive to the lower levels of the system while continuing to perpetuate inhumane treatment to all peoples on a day to day basis.

But by allowing oneself to gather crucial insights from those most receptive to the 'lower ends' of the system, one can begin to get a step-by-step understanding into the depths of what it truly is like to experience the brunt of social ills, and learn how to adjust their behaviour.

It is important for those who sincerely seek to balance the scales to not fear being wrong or condemned. Rather ones should be willing to legitimately experience what many others illegitimately experience for their whole lives and learn to cultivate sincerity.

Trust is not something we are entitled to. It is a gift.

I totally agree )))


- Tracey