Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

"WHY did European/White people do this to the world?"

I would like everyone's ideas on this because although I am a Pan-Africanist, and socialism says that racism was created as an excuse to exploit other peoples...I have a hard time reconciling that with the OBVIOUS racism that took place in the Nicean conference which was far prior to the colonial period and the Aryan invasion of the origional Dravidian/Dalit population of the Indus valley(and the subsequent caste system established). Also there is the fact that only European/white people subjugated the entire world(some say that anyone would do this if they had the same technological/tricknological advancement)

....Basically, the dates of European/White agression do not match up with the idea racism/caste systems were born out of the colonial era as an excuse and justification for colonial exploitation....

Do you go with the Isis Papers Keys to the Colours theory,  the  Ice Man Inheritance theory, or the socialist theory...what explains European/White people's global and historical hostility towards people with melanin?....If there are other theories out there please explain...(I know of a few more about genetic grafting and alien stuff, that I didn't want to go into because I think they are a little far fetched and reactionary, there is also a book "Yurugu" I haven't read yet) I'm looking for a logical reason.

For those that haven't read the books...

"The Isis papers" says...Albino's leaving/being kicked out of Africa, therefore having a inferiority complex because of the lack of melanin(being allergic to the sun is not natural or man's origional state of being and is also only a conditions suffered by the minority), and therefore, like a bully who feels bad about himself, subjugates others to feel better, and sets up a superirity system,to combat internal inferiority because of lack of melanin... Also removes the female principle in spirituality because of the "origional sin"/birth defect of albonism.

"The Ice Man Inheritance says...European agression derives  from the harsh conditions of survival in Europe...that the lack of melanin is from environmental conditions. Where there is little sun(Europe), man's melanin content had to deplete to be able to get the propper amount of vitamin A.  Where as in Africa(and other parts of the world) Melanin was needed to protect us from the sun's harmful UV rays, and life in Africa was not as hostile because of the tropical conditions(more food, more temperate climate, easier life, minimized hostility)...Also the removalof the female principle in spirituality was due to the domminant physical male being revered becuase he was necessary to combat harsh conditions and survive. The female was weaker(physically) and therefore not deserving of spiritual reverence...

Basically I am asking the big question...
"WHY did Eurpean/White people do this to the world?"

I havn't came to a conclusion yet and would very much appreciate other people's opinions and input on what they think...

Thanks

Interesting topic!
I may have to continue this later cos I'll have to run out soon.
First I should say that my dad is white (from the ghetto area in Caerdydd, Cymru- Cardiff, Wales). I mention that cos it might make me biased, since I think my dad's a good guy with no genetic predisposition to oppress people.
 With that said-
 The Isis Papers: I find this theory a bit fanciful, cos albinism is totally distinct from race. An African albino could pass it on in his genes, but his kids would look like Yellow Man, not like a caucasian.
  The Iceman- sounds plausible at first, but think about it a little deeper- people like the Inuit live in one of the harshest environments in the world, but they've never oppressed anybody (except maybe one another in minor ways through small-scale wars, etc). And some of the European groups that were most involved in oppressive empire-building and slavery lived in lush, semi-tropical environments (Romans, Spanish, etc)
  Also look how the English have treated the Welsh, Scots and especially the Irish- they looked exactly the same, but were definitely considered inferior races. By the same token, various African and Asian kingdoms have oppressed and enslaved one another historically, and often considered each other inferior 'races' although there was nothing external to distinguish them. True, this oppression never reached the extent it did under white rule.
  I think the answer lies in forms of social organization/culture, not race. Societies with little hierarchy or class distinctions tend not to make wars of conquest on other societies, those that have extreme class/caste differences do, in order to acquire more of the surplus that the kings, chiefs etc. have grown used to for their luxurious lifestyles.
 I have a bit more to say on this but I'll have to save that later.
  Happy Earthday Bob Marley!
 

I wasn't asking the question on racial terms alone....actually the "development" that different theories propose as explanations of the behavior would insinuate a "culture" was being formed. One was blaming genetics, another environment...You have debunked both in a very logical manner(thanks) but given no actual explanation.

Why would European/White "culture" develop in such a way of caste and social stratification and oppression of the entire world? It is the same question put a different way...

Is it the advanced technology of weaponry attained or something else more culture based?

The WHY is what is confusing me. I'll look forward to further posts.  

"Why would European/White "culture" develop in such a way of caste and social stratification and oppression of the entire world? It is the same question put a different way... "

I don't really comprehend what else you were sayin but I think I get the jist of it. I just wanna talk about this part. So your not even talkin about white people opressin black people and every other people on earth, but your also talkin about different culture's opressin each other, so like with the Tutsi and Hutu? First off European is not really a culture, there is Dutch culture, Irish culture, French culture, Scottish culture. A long time ago there were even more though, I'll talk about Scotland because I am predominantly Scottish so I've done alot of research on it. Way back there were the Highland Picts and the Lowland Britons, then a bit later came the Scots ( where the country got its name even though they were from Ireland) even more down the line Viking settlers came and then the Normans. Most Normans went to England but some went to Scotland. So then there were 5 ethnicities/cultures, and then the whole tribal system in Europe was basicly gotten rid of, everyone was intermarried, none of it was kept track of and your ethnicity/culture basicly became the same as your nationality, with some exceptions of course. So if you wanna know which Europeans are to blame, in my opinion and all honesty, I think the English started a chian reaction, I'll explain. First they weren't to nice to my Scottish ancestors, they banned our culture ( tartans, bagpipes ect.) and slaughtered a bunch of clans that tried to resist them. Then the English (and I'll admit, some Scottish, but they were the English wannabees) went out around the world exploring and everyone they met they were of course better than, then they started up the African slave trade, and the rest of Europe followed. Back in the old world the English still thought they were better than the Scottish and the French thought they were better than the English and visa versa ect. but all europeans thought they were better than non europeans and those thoughts carried over to the new world, where people weren't recognized as much by nationalities, other than the English and French in Canada,but there were white Americans and black Americans. That's how I think it was started.

The answer to your question is no mystery Oshun_Auset.

First you should know that the melanin is high forms of vibration crystallized or sophisticated psychochemical computer engines that can absorb and process high rates of vibrations. I like to think of melanin as quartz. Just as quartz was used in the ancient times in the pyramids and temples, and are used today in computer chips and watches. The majority of people today are ignorant that they have quartz right in their own bodies in the form of Melanin, for chemical as well as alchemical researches have shown that 90% of human melanin does reside within the brain. Thus IMHO, the destructive anti-life behavior of white people does not result from a color deficiency. Blacks and Whites just evolved in their unique ways. The Arabs and European descent people evil behavior happens to be vital to the survival of their economies. They steal, corrupt and manipulate the darker people of the world for their sole benefit! This certainly sounds like the socialist theory.

Furthermore, nobody from the African population, whether they are African, West Indian or African-American has been instrumental in worldwide terrorist endeavors. It is just not the societal attitude consistent with Africans, unless the latter come in constant contact with racism in education, religion, justice and all areas manufactured by foreign nations for the sole white supremacy agenda.
IMHO again, it is not a coincidence that ancient Africans found a way of sustaining millenniums of wonderful liberal economies and technology without relentless theft of what belongs to other people of varying cultures. Before the invasions, when Africa was at her zenith, ancient Africans were much more spiritual and had much more INTEGRITY. They transcended white  societal ideology of individualism.

Thus we see, without the positive guidance of the Creator Source and the noble principles of integrity, the true power of Melanin (the power of mental rebirth) ultimately leaves us.  Without this mental and spiritual power we are really ignorant and ultimate preys to our corruptible lower nature.


Bantu Kelani.

Oshun_Auset
   I think it's a combination of technology and cultural type. The type of culture would determine how you used whatever technology you had developed. Eg. the Chinese had gunpowder long before Europeans but they used it for fireworks, not weapons.
  As to why cultures develop in the different ways that they do, I don't know. But if you check it 'hunter-gatherer' societies and suchlike cultures which are termed as so-called 'primitive' tend to display less hierarchy and aggressive behavior to others, than more so-called 'advanced' societies which are settled, have agriculture and animal husbandry, etc. I think this is not only because the latter can produce a surplus which can be used by their greedy leaders for luxuries that become addictive to them, but also because the so-called 'advanced' societies thrive by dominating nature in some way, whereas 'primitive' societies thrive by existing in harmony with nature, not dominating or being dominated, but knowing their place within the natural scheme of things and behaving accordingly. I think when societies begin to dominate and manipulate the natural world, this attitude carries over into other areas- dominating women, one another, and other societies.
   As to why some European cultures developed this behavior to a greater extent than anyone else in history, I'm really not sure. Could it have been anyone who happened to have that particular type of culture in that particular type of environment and then happened to develop advanced technology, or was there something specific to Europeans? I lean towards the former explanation, but I'm not sure.
   Bantu-Kelani: I don't know enough about the science behind melanin to really comment on that theory, I would have to do more research. I will say though that colonial European powers have not only made their riches off the blood of Africans, Asians, etc, but off the blood of their own people and other Europeans as well... eg, the model for subsequent English imperialism was their subjugation of the Irish next door, then they took that behavior and expanded it worldwide... and those English lords had almost as much contempt for poor English people as they did for people of color.
  This stupid computer is about to kick me off the internet so I'll go now... we could discuss more later

Well I encourage you to do some research, for this information is universally known.  The prime function of the melanin in the human body is analogous to chlorophyll in plants. The melanin is not only the pigment on the external surface of the body, but 90% of the melanin that our bodies contain exists in our brain in the pineal gland which is a tiny little thing, somewhere between the size of a grain of rice and a pea. There is clear and strong evidence that the melanin is dark in color at the same rate in whites as it is in blacks similar to the black quartz. This leaves the door open for people to maintain whatever belief they want, if they possibly may convert their belief positively... The melanin essential role is physiological and acts as a semiconductor to transform energy. You cannot plug the human body like an electrical machine, but it does get electricity from another source: the diet, as well as the cosmic energy in the form of natural sources like the sun, air, water and earth. This living melanin (quartz) is able to absorb the energy of earth, sound (music and waves), light (sun, planets and stars), air (Chi, Prana, Ra etc.), water (sea, lake and river), vibrations etc...
Today, we can see how our ancestors, the indigenous people of this planet, have been able to reuse these energies in the past for the benefit of man in the expression of advanced civilizations we see today pyramid, temples, mathematics, architecture, cosmology and more. Read "The Science & Myth of the Melanin" and "Dark Matter, Dark Secrets" by T.Owens Moore, M.D.  Dr. Moore's two books are great work, they show how the functional role for melanin lies beyond skin pigmentation and the material-spiritual relationship of melanin!



Indeed, the anti-life behaviour is prevalent among western populations right from prehistoric times until after the Second World War. This has been due to the energy and resource interests against each other. This was especially so during the European colonial times, such traces could be found in history.
In the modern times too, this cultural stereotyping of violence and racism has occurred, especially in the 1940s with the neo-Nazi massacres of European Jews, even in the 1990's and 21th century. For instance, in Yugoslavia the Milosevic regime inflicted terrible atrocities on the Kosovars and KLA. Yet, the mainstream media ignored NATO's own propaganda and gross violations of international humanitarian law and basic rights to Milosevic and members of his regime.... Russia complained at NATO's human rights violations while some NATO members (e.g the US CIA which had long trained the KLA against Yugoslavia and other Islamic terrorist groups operating in Chechnya) have accused Russia of doing the same thing. A major oil pipeline carries oil from fields in Baku on the Caspian Sea and Chechnya toward the Ukraine. For Russia it is important that the oil pipelines and routes they take to be sold to the western markets meet their needs. As with most other conflicts involved Europeans, the crisis in Chechnya is trade and access related reasons for the control of Caspian Sea oil...Also, the Anglo-Irish struggle against Britain's but also the US's interfere in the internal affairs of the Irish people etc.

The Northern, Western and Eastern European history of power struggles, however, didn't fragment the white race but rather bring about UNITY. Divide and conquer techniques are only used against the darker people throughout the world and throughtout history.

Bantu Kelani.

Thank you for everyone's input. I am aware of the pineal gland and the functions of melanin, as I am with the internal oppression of European power towards weeker European powers.

This is an interesting conversation but it still doesn't really answer the "why" clearly.

Bantu_Kelani, you stating the paradox I have come across. Why did only European people develop(and unify) under such an aggressive cuture towards the rest of the planets melenated people? Are you stating is their lack of melanin that keeps their culture out of balance? Or are you saying because the pineal gland has melanin reguardless of actual skin colour, that they are no more out of touch with the "All" than anyone else. You stated that there is no mystery but to say that all people have the melanin in their pineal gland...actually debunks the "melanin" theory...so the mystery remains.  

The fact that it has been going on since far prior to the colonial period debunks the socialist theory that racism developed out of the need for an excuse/justification for colonialism.

I appreciate all the information,...but your information, which I am aware of, contradicts the socialist theory rather than supports it. I may have misunerstood the direction you were taking your explanation of "why" in...if that is the case please clarify it for me.

The "why" might be an unaswerable question since it might be something that developed in undocumented European history....but it will always confound me.  

c-spot_rasta, the Tutsi and Hutu didn't oppress the entire world...There has always been localized oppression and battles between all people of the world...but you can't compare the scale that colonialization took to that of localized conflicts. The colonial states that were created by the division of Africa at the Berlin conference led to much of the tension between different ethnic groups because the lines drawn did not respect any traditional homelands, and this exasperated the ethnic tension(this was the strategy of divide conquer). So your point is mute considering the Tutsi and Hutu once the origions of the tension are explored.

It also was not the English who first colonized Africa...First it was the Arabs, then the first European powers were the Portuguese...and like Bantu Kelani stated so eliquently, the internal struggles and colonial exploitation UNIFIED European powers. They did fight like cats and dogs over who had control of the colonies...but such battles only determined who would get the most financial/economic benefit. All of this does little to shed light on WHY only European powers colonized the entire world...I'm wondering WHY greed was developed to such an exponential degree? I have a hard time believing it was just "happenstance". I know that Europe has historically looked at Africa as the "breadbasket"(ie. Imperial Greeco-Roman dominance of KMT) so does anyone think it could be related to Europe's historical lack of natural resources? I'm grasping at straws now.

"c-spot_rasta, the Tutsi and Hutu didn't oppress the entire world"

That's not what I was gettin at, I was giving an example of one culture opressin another, and I understand that because of colonization it changed the borders of the tribes and made ones that didn't like each other too much be in the same country. But even before colonization there were still tribal wars, and the Tutsi and Hutu conflict was basicly that, just on larger terms and with ethnic cleansing, even though colonization making 2 diferent peoples share a common nationality didn't help, it may still have happened had there never been colonization, and then it would have been like a war between 2 countries. And I know the Arabs colonized it first but I don't think I said they didn't and if I did, that's the least important part of what I said.

I thought I have given you a logical explanation why white peoples partake in continuous anti-life behavior. It seems that I have done so ambiguously, so I am going to rephrase simpler if I can.

Although the melanin is somewhat higher in Black folks due to the darker pigment in Black people's skin, I recur that 90% of it reside within our brain in the pineal gland. Hence, to me, there is no biological theory that justifies the premise that the collective genocidal behavior of white people is due to a LACK of melanin. The inclusive melanin is the neuromelanin. Its location, look, size and level of function are the same in all races. It calcifies at the same rate. Its function therefore is reduced at the same rate in whites as it is in blacks.

Moreover, I repeat that the imperialism, chattel enslavement, conquest, brutality, lying etc. are important factors in securing white people prosperity. This terrorism bring political power, influence and the chance to acquire land, minerals and oil. As early as 2,000 years ago the overseas expansion made Caucasian peoples rich. As a result more of their colonialists entrepreneurs were increasingly eager to conquer new provinces and plunder their riches.
I thus concur with the socialist premise. It is well-known that white peoples imperialism is driven by political necessity to control the world from a mental state that is egotistical oriented. And certainly, at various times in their history they wage wars solely for economic and geopolitical gains.

To end, I say that I do not believe that this self-seeking attitude is developed as a result of a "limited environment". As one observes various peoples around the world (people we would judge "primitive" and "wretched") live simply in a peaceful way, guilty free, relatively in harmony with self and nature. IMHO what happens with the Caucasian case is that these peoples have just stored the most irrational fears born of cultural biases, primarily based on ignorance of wisdom and the Universal Laws.  

I truly hope I helped you gained a bit of insight on this subject.

Bantu Kelani.

peace and hotep,

bantu kelani, may i only add, firstly, that welsing elaborated on the inadequacies and overcompensations of people that classify themselves as 'white' , who place themselves outside of the hue-man family values. and secondly, the fate of the abandoned oedipus rex or the prodical son.

freedomisahapislave  [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

This statement stems from misinformation. Colonialism in Africa exacerbated the existing tribal conflicts. Tribal conflicts in Africa were not nearly as ferocious and frequent as nowadays and in other parts of the world. During pre-colonial times, tribalism was very minor and usually not more than a dozen person died as a result.  It is imperialism that has caused sharp divisions between many tribes in Africa. The Hutus and Tutsis themselves attest that intense hatred between them emerged after being colonized. The Europeans, in order to divide Africans and make them weaker, established one group over the other making them think that some of them are better than others. After the Europeans left the ill feelings between the Hutus and Tutsis remained that's how the Rwanda genocide came about. It is imperative white Africanists learn the truth of history and abandons biased old programmed beliefs if they wish to bring themselves into harmony with the social and political issues of the African people. This imperative is also valid for Black folks who are asleep and dreaming in western worlds.

Bantu Kelani.

Greetings. I will try to offer as much as I am able at this present time to this subject. I believe that all wickedness stems from selfishness. I believe selfishness is the root. I will try to use biblical allegory to represent this. Why did Adam and Eve disobey the Lord and eat from the tree of knowledge? Because instead of obeying the Father, they chose instead to think for "Themselves" in a selfish manner. Adam and Eve did not think of the benifit for anything else but themselves. So I believe selfishness is the first sin, and thus the root of evil. I will attempt to use another biblical concept. Satan rebelled against JAH not for anyone else's benifit, but only for the benifit of "Himself" out of jealousy.

Now this Selfishness has been around for an antedeluvian period of time. All conquest of another people is based on selfishness. If there is an example of conquest that is not based on a selfish exposition then please inform me. The reason conquest takes place is that a power either wants to  spread a certain theology, which is based on selfishness because it is not allowing people to think and believe according to their free will. The other reason for conquest is that a power wants what another power has, which is characteristic of a selfish nature that is explanatory in itself. Now I have established that conquest is of a selfish nature, and thus evil in nature. I am not positive but I believe that conquest has been a policy of nearly every culture and power. Please inform me if I remain Ignorant. The muslim arabs, as well as the African Moors conquered much of Northern Africa as well as Spain and Eastern Europe. Conquest was a policy of Mohammed. The European/white nations colonized Africa and displayed such evil obviously because they could. They had the power to, which has been established. Now what these Nations did was horrible, and they did it because they were selfish and they had the power to do it.  I am in no way defending these White people, because what they did is of the utmost mallicious nature. To answer the main question of Oshu (sorry if I spellt ur name wrong), I do not think there is some kind of special scientific theory that is going to answer the question, but what I believe is that the European/White nations did what they did simply because they were selfish and they could get away with it. They obviously had the power and they used it.  Now to say that this Anti-Life behavior originated with the White Man, that may be true I do not know. But it is my belief that Black Man and Woman were the first people of the earth, and that they existed for many years before white people. I am not trying to say that I believe that Black Man and Woman were the first people to kill someone. What I am saying is that the Anti-Life behavior originated with the first person that did kill someone. Murder is anti-life, and murder exists within all races. I believe selfishness is anti-life. There are Righteous People and there are wicked people.

"This statement stems from misinformation. Colonialism in Africa exacerbated the existing tribal conflicts. Tribal conflicts in Africa were not nearly as ferocious and frequent as nowadays and in other parts of the world. During pre-colonial times, tribalism was very minor and usually not more than a dozen person died as a result.  It is imperialism that has caused sharp divisions between many tribes in Africa. The Hutus and Tutsis themselves attest that intense hatred between them emerged after being colonized. The Europeans, in order to divide Africans and make them weaker, established one group over the other making them think that some of them are better than others. After the Europeans left the ill feelings between the Hutus and Tutsis remained that's how the Rwanda genocide came about. It is imperative white Africanists learn the truth of history and abandons biased old programmed beliefs if they wish to bring themselves into harmony with the social and political issues of the African people. This imperative is also valid for Black folks who are asleep and dreaming in western worlds."


I see what you're sayin, but, correct me if I'm wrong, what you're getting at is tribal war, pre colonialism. So that would involve only a few small villages and traditional weapons. Had there been no colinization, but for some reason the 2 tribes got mad at each other, let's just say land for now, with modern technology every tribal village or city in the country would know about it, so it would be all the members of one tribe against all the members of another and they would have modern technology. There would be ome differences though like since they wouldn't both be the same country, one tribe wouldn't have all the power and weapons, so instead of half a million deaths on one side there might be half a million on both sides. I had already figured that it was the Europeans who had sort of appointed the one ehtnicity as the "superior" one, but I still feel that this or somethin similiar to it would have happened any ways......

On what basis do you declare that cultural genocide originates from the indigenous people of this planet? Can you refer me to an authentic record that confirm your statement? Or do you base this uninformed declaration from your ego defense system? Know that as early as 6000 B.C when high culture begun in Africa and when the indigenous Africans extended their authority across the Middle East around 1532-1070 BC they never plundered or enslaved the Caucasian people they found. Their civilizations were following the principles of Universal Law, guided by humanist principles. Our ancient ancestors placed the conquered with equality and intermarried with them. These races were the Sumerians, Akkadiens, Greek Ionians etc. It was after the Caucasian colonization that tribal conflicts started occurring, and this to me means that the European colonization is largely responsible for tribalism turmoil in Africa. All countries have had their issues, and African nations are no exception. But the Europeans, in order to weaken our people, used divide and conquer tactics they are also using TODAY.

And don't confuse everything. The African Moors first entered Spain from 400 AD and where the last to leave in 711 AD. Much later the Asian Arab Moors followed them in Spain in 680 AD after they conquered the whole Iberian Peninsula. (See Black Man of the Nile and his family by Dr. Yosef Ben-Jochannan). History relates that these Black Moor were great learning and advanced people, they reintroduced science, technology and education and raised the Europeans form the Dark Ages.

On the other hand the European and Arab colonialism, rape and enslavement of Blacks worlwide are so profound that the indigenous African way of life never recovered! Our civilizations cruelly started to decline by 671 AD when the Assyrian Semites conquered Africa. You lack any historical or contemporary knowledge of European imperialism and Africa's pre-colonial period, for African people never stole land for large-scale imperialism and enslavement along with brainwashing conspiracies. Despite slavery among white peoples, they are united for better development! Your ignorance Hailiniemperor accelerate misery, pain and disharmony. To face historical and contemporary truth expands awareness and truly can be a catalyst to self-healing.


If it did I wish to read some literature or any documentary inscription relating to these chronic tribal conflicts in pre-colonial Africa you speak of.


Bantu Kelani.

I think that the limited territory and resources of Europe has always influenced their motivations for colonialist/imperialist expansion, up to and including Hitler, who looked to the east for his 'breadbasket' since Africa was already 'taken.'

This does not explain the United States' behavior, except that by the time they became a country imperialist behavior was already a European habit.

It does not follow that everyone with environmental or population pressures resorts to aggression. But I have been reading about the history of North Africa, and it is true there that seasonal environmental pressures did often lead to conflicts between normally peaceful peoples.

One thing that has been baffling me is why some used the capacities of their big human brains to develop destructive technologies, while others devoted their technological skills to other areas all together, and still others conceive of no need to put their energies into technology beyond a very basic level. So-called 'primitive' people are usually labelled so because of their disinterest in 'progress.' What I think we see reflected in ancient cultures like the Pygmies is that the highest value is put on harmony with natural cycles and a stweardship relation with the natural world, rather than the Genesis 'dominion over nature.'

I see that a lot of the problems of the last 2000 years stems from a literalistic Judeo-Christian ideology that promotes xenophobia, hatred for women, a dominator attitude twoards nature, a 'Chosen People' idea that promotes a superiority complex, and the idea of an 'exclusive revelation'
(God talks to us but not to 'them') which has at various times  made it justifiable in many minds to eliminate people in order to 'save them.'

I reject that argument that it's not the religion, it's the people who say they belong to it. I would say that racism, imperialism, colonialism are logical extensions of Judeo-Christian ideology. Since Jesus is set to 'return' at some later date, and until then humans are pretty much on their own, and since Christians are told they can be forgiven at the last minute for their depraved and evil actions, hey, anything goes.

Ideas always come before actions, and these ideas clearly set the stage for a ghastly holocaust.

And behind every 'superiority complex' of course lies a screaming insecurity.  You only feel the need to assert your superiority over others when you have deep feelings of inferiority.

Even though imperial aggression existed long before the past 500 years in Europe, and even though race was sometimes used as a pretext for slaughter, it was the 'modern' Europeans who grabbed onto this idea wholesale and devoted their 'science' and their philosophy to create a hierarchy of race, suggesting that non-white people were a different and lower species of human altogether, and this was clearly to serve the interests of capitalism. Every bit of the 'capital' that fueled the Industrial Revolution and the rise of modern Europe and US was pillaged from Africa, America, and Asia. The Europeans of the past 300 years especially invented out of whole cloth a hieracrchy of race and used it to justify their behavior, to the length of suggesting that they were merely hastening nature's work, helping evolution along. They had to see themselves as great 'humanists' because they were "Christian,' after all. This was merely a justification. What they were interested in ultimately was more, and more, and more...

When people whose value system is about living in alignment with the natural and celestial order encounter people whose value system tells them it's all about 'progress' and 'dominion,' and by extension the domination of others, and they have the destructive technology to back it up, voila its the 'New World Order'.

The Europeans were cut off from their African ancestry. They were like orphans, without a sense of their own roots. When Christian ideology came along, they built a world-view based on their own feeling of bereavment and lostness. They used material gain to compensate for their deep insecurity.  I don't think there is necessarily any one answer to this question. This is how I have been seeing it lately.

Rootsie

"The Europeans were cut off from their African ancestry. They were like orphans, without a sense of their own roots. When Christian ideology came along, they built a world-view based on their own feeling of bereavment and lostness. They used material gain to compensate for their deep insecurity. "

I am thinking this is  important .. what/how was the reason / circumstance that cut off the Europeans from their African Ancestry?

peace and hotep,

the isis (yssis) papers......the keys to the colors.
by DR. FRANCES CRESS WELSING.

chapter 2: the origene of alienation, anxiety and narcissism.

.....and much more on the how/why/what/where of people who classify themselves as 'white'.

positive solutions to problems are all around us just waiting to be utilized. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

freedomisahapislave

It does not take much imagination to assume that it is simply GREED, the refusal to follow the primary spiritual directives, guidelines and tools to empower health and natural harmony. The violence of killing humans comes from a willful CARNAL desire to kill humanity, ecology and animals. Neither the lack of land, water, animal population, atmosphere or whatever is the cause of the Caucasian destructive behavior. I recur that a few groups of people isolated in certain areas of the world live in harsh environments, isolation and lack of resources. We call them "backward people" because they continue to live in harmony with the original commandment of the Creator Source and therefore enjoy superior vitality, endurance and general well being. Some forests Indians of South America, some Polynesians, and some Bantu tribes still live in this "marginalized" or "primitive" manner. Some people have just their mindset to destroy. Denial and repudiation stem form the resistance to evolve to holiness.


Bantu Kelani.

peace and hotep,





alienation is the very same dynamic that pushes human beings away from respectful and harmonious relationships with the physical enviroment, leading to the pollution and destruction of the planet. most important, the alienation dynamic forces the individual away from all manifestations of self-understanding and self-respect, including the most fundamental respect---respect for one's genetic makeup.......welsing

now bantu-kelani, you may wish to alienate welsing but at least invalidate what she proposes. she has suffered for her propositions.

if what she offers is in the least bit accurate we may find that what is wrong withe 'whiteness' is its african origene.

if african ARROGANCE, IGNORANCE AND STUBBORNNESS is at fault we should be willing to reclaiming our prodical chile and place our ring upon his finger.

the parents of oedipus or romulus and rhemus are at fault. we will pay dearly for what was done and not resolved.

respectfully, you or no ones can imagine what  effect 20000 years on the ice aged plains of eurasia has on the soul unless you veiw hell through blue eyes.  [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

freedomisahapislave

Bantu: I will say that to my knowledge the Africans of the Ghana Empire after 700AD engaged in slavery. In the bible suposedly the Israelites were slaves in Egypt. I believe that the Romans played a big part in primitive slavery in Africa. But I would like you to give me proof that the Africans who engaged in conquest did not plunder. The act of conquest is plundering in itself.

Bantu:  "Dynasty XVIII, 1500-1300 B.C. Egypt attained the summit of her power. She became the arbitress of the whole world. Sayce says that they returned with new rolls of conquered provinces and with the PLUNDER and tribute of the east....Thotmes III was of all the Pharoahs, unquestionably the greatest....In the Hall of Ancestors, Karnak, Thotmess III, may be seen making offerings before sixty-one of his ancestors. This will give us some idea of how many Ethiopian monarchs had sat upon the Egyptian throne....From his expeditions into Asia he returned with enormous SPOIL. He was undoubtedly, the Alexander of the Egyptian history. He conquered the known world. Thotmes III carved the names of 628 VANQUISHED nations and captured cities on the walls at Karnak....The next king of this dynasty was Amenhotep II, son of Thotmes III. The Egyptians under his lead captured Nineveh. He brought back the bodies of seven kings that he had taken in battle. He put up their heads as TROPHIES on the walls of Thebes.....Thotmes III, Amenophis III, and Amenophis IV were in apperance unmixed Negro types. Darwin was struck by the extremely Ethiopian characteristics of the statue of Amenophis III." (Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire by Drusilla Dunjee Houston pg. 99-103)

Now Bantu, I never said anything about the Indegenous people of the earth practicing cultural genocide. I did say something about the Indegenous people of the earth practicing conquest, of which the former information bequeathed upon you makes quite obvious. I will never forgive the European/White men that participated in the genocide of 100,000,000 black slaves, just as I will never forgive Lucipher, but to say that EVIL and Anti-Life originated with one specific people, no matter what race they may be, is the epitome of ignorance in itself. Bantu, your thinking is utterly characteristic of a biased nature.

Greetings. A fascinating conversation.

I think it is a mistake to look at cultural development removed from a notion of ascendancy/evolution/time. Time is the master. To ignore the process of cultural growth through time is to deny the gift of eternal life culture represents. You as an individual will wither and fade, but your culture will thrive and grow. Evolution.

To pin the terrible onus of slavery on one particular group is to deny the veracity of historical record and any notion of cultural evolution. The enslavement of one's neighbors is a stage of cultural development.  It is true that some tribal groups did not practice slavery. That is because the tribal/animistic state of being is a pre-slavery state. Slavery begins to arise in the historical record when warlords and hedonistic empires begin to consolidate disparate tribes into monolithic societies. The slave state emerges from the patchwork of tribal existence; you can't enslave a people until they are identified as A People. Slavery is indeed born of a impulsive, immoral, and guiltless mindset. This is a mindset that EVERY culture must develop through. Doubt this? Then look at your own children.

The development of a single child mirrors the development of an entire culture. A newborn is helpless and frightened and comforted only by the familiar embrace of a loving mother. As a child interacts with its environment, it undergoes a series of lessons about the nature of reality and relationships. This process is a response to various life conditions. Soon the world becomes a magical place to explore. But then exploration turns to domination and the quest to control and influence ones surroundings. The so-called "terrible twos" are when children are exercising their impulsiveness. They are immoral and guiltless. Yes, they are at the psychological developmental stage of a "slave state". But the child continues to grow and develop, eventually leaning respect, honesty, spirituality, and all the other virtues. If EVERY child develops in a similar pattern, then why can't we acknowledge that EVERY culture develops in the same way. In other words, slavery emerges in the historical record in response to particular life conditions, and it passes into the dust bin as new conditions emerge.

Just like the development of a particular child can be retarded, the development of a particular culture can be retarded. I think it is fair to say that the dominant Anglo-Saxon culture is currently in a retarded state of psychological development. Arrested development.

Slavery is not unique to any one people. It is recorded in various epochs in the Far East, Africa, and South and North America.  One particular race (White folks) did excel at the practice of slavery, but this had nothing to do with their skin color, melanin levels, or inherent wickedness. It was simply a terrible juxtaposition of developmental processes; psychological immaturity (retardation) with burgeoning technological sophistication.  

Your reference speak of plunder (whatever that means), still  nO ancient records show information that black Africans caused genocide, disease, famine and degradation to other peoples before the invasions of the Europeans and the sand people of the desert . For thousand of years, before the invasions, Africa was recognized as the cradle of the highest level of spiritual civilization. Many wise men and scholars from all over the world including Yeshua, Plato and Pythagoras came to study under indigenous African priests. Example, in the "Iliad" Homer described our ancient ancestors I quote: "as the most distant of the human race, but also and the most righteous and best beloved of Gods.."

You also mention the myths of the Jewish people that are recorded in the bible. To those of us who don't believe the biblical accounts are accurate, because there is no archeological evidence for the stories therein, there's no question at all about it. Even as to the allegorical tale of the captivity of the Israelites in Egypt (Mizraim or Khemet its true name), there are an indication in the bible that Abraham married the Egyptian woman Hagar and so produced the African Semites (Gen. 16;17). His Black Egyptian mother Hagar married Ishmael off to an Egyptian Khemite so producing a solid African line (Gen. 21:21). We have Joseph the son of Israel marrying an Egyptian daughter of the High priest (Genesis 41:45). After the Exodus we have proof that the 70 who went down into Africa populated to over 400,000 through marriage with African Egyptians!
The Bible also calls the Egyptians wise men. In fact, the Black Egyptians priests taught the sacred mysteries, arts and science to the Israelites during their captivity. The mythological Black Israelite we know as Moses was a representative of the secret schools of Egypt who was adopted and educated by the ruling class of Egypt. A careful comparison with the Caucasian chattel slavery we noticed that the Caucasian slavers never taught Black slaves anything. ALL the records relating to the Arab and European slave masters relate how they ripped Black Africans from the only homes they'd ever known to bring them like ANIMALS to Americas and Arabia. History also tells how the Caucasian slavers continually kept Blacks in extreme poverty, persecuted Black scientists and teachers ruined their temples and keept ALL the classical knowledge for themselves. They did not marry but raped, whipped, and lynched Black Africans for CENTURIES. If you pick up and read any book on chattel slavery in West Indian and North and South America, you will find out!

For your information, the slavery that existed in Africa during pre-colonial time was very minor and more like indentured SERVITUDE. You refuse to realize, it is European Imperialism that has caused sharp divisions between Africans. Before the Arab and European contact, Ashanti would not sell or kill Ashanti, Igbo would not sell or kill Igbo, Hausa would not sell or kill Hausa etc...It is the whites that built slaves ports and castles, displace our people and caused harm to them. Most of the information on slavery in Africa currently circulating misses one major ingredient, that is, eyewitness accounts of the descendants of African tribes who enslaved. Much of that has written about slavery in Africa come from European people not form the tribes of the Black African slavers themselves! This makes European information heavily diluted with falsehood to make the Africans look worse than them.

There is no doubt in my mind the counterfeit historical and anthropological ideas and theories of European scholars are intended so the White Establishment continues its exploitation and oppression of Black Africans. Despite these well-known DISTORTIONS the whites so-called Africanists have the audacity to uphold these lies on Black forums. When conscious and educated Black folks relate the TRUTH, that has nothing to do with white racism, it is simply relating REALITY! I have come to the realization that most Caucasians know exactly what's going on. When they come to Black forums faking like they are one of us only to support lies and propaganda, I understand they are not interested in the TRUTH. They only want to refute the savage behavior so common in their nature. Poor souls.


In spite of the appellation, the "ice age" in Europe and central Asia, was not cold all the time. There were frequent warm intervals periods. In these parts of the world the first modern humans, survived in areas of abundant grasslands by hunting herds of grazing animals. They found shelter in caves or made huts of mammoth bones. They were not living in icier or colder climates than the nowadays Indian Eskimos or rural white Russians in the northern parts of Greenland and eastern Siberia. The wicked and unrighteous behavior of the rest of the Caucasian race just stem from an unyielding lush for power. The great majority of white folks live and enjoy the fruits of its evils perhaps that why they refuse to acknowledge that what is obvious.


Bantu Kelani.

If white folks excel at it, then it is prevalent and characteristic of their collective behavior.


From  prehistorical times (even the times when all modern humans were just farmers or nomadic herders at end of the ice age 10,000 BC ) warriors band of the Caucasian stock from central Asia were raiding Western Europe and the regions of the darker people in the Mediterranean, Mesopotamia, the Oriental lands and the Nile Valley creating terror whenever they landed. They increased wars and caused the decline of many civilizations. Again, it seems that fierce military campaigns and acquisition of lands was primeval of the Caucasian race.


Bantu kelani.

Bantu Kelani...thanks for the clarification...and thank you everyone for the input to a lively conversation.

What does everyone think developed 'this unyielding lust of power' in European civilization? Do you think it is the unlucky combination of spiritual immaturity of a younger human population, and/or the added affect of technologically "advanced" weapons systems? Or is it just happenstance?

By the way I see nobody has touched on the "coincidence" that the Aryan invasion and subsequent oppression of the Dravidian/Dalit people of the Indian Subcontinent also had a caste system "coincidently" based on skin colour....What made history repeat itself in a similar manner with the Trans-Atlantic slave trade and colonization hundreds of years later? Is this just happenstance or is something else going on?  

So you are saying that the reason why some tribes did not practise slavery is because they were not advanced enough?  'because the tribal/animistic state of being is a pre-slavery state'? This borders on being nonsensical.History does not show this. Even so, people are discussing slavery, a distinction has to be made between the chattel slavery practised by the Europeans and the servitude as practised by the Africans. By no  stretch of the imagination could the servitude by the Africans be likened to the European chattel slavery, because they both are fundamentally different.


Even if there may be some similarities between cultures, the reality is that cultures develop and evolve in very different ways given their environment. History just doesn't support the notion that all cultures must have inherent in their traditions impulsive, immoral, and guiltless mindsets . The traditions of most indigenous people do not show these traits even if they may have been displayed by individuals at some time.

This reaction is often one that is generated as a defense mechanism to deal with the guilt of belong to a race that committed the worse atrocities in human history. The reality is that even though chattel slavery has ended, the mindset and oppressive system that facilitated slavery is still very much present. So people especially Whites have to come to   terms with their own role and complicity is the present system of false values and privileges and not try to sidestep the injustices by saying that all cultures have evil or....whatever defense mechanism is convienent. It is imperative that people deal with themselves from who they are. So if a person is White, Indian or whatever, they  must deal with themselves from the uniqueness of that experience.

Tyehimba

Maybe this will help.

http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1066661403

Tyehimba,

Ashe!

Tyehimba

Correct. As abhorrent as it may sound, the practice of slavery was an economic advancement over hunting/gathering economies. And it is not non sensical.  Remember, the purpose of economic activity is to produce wealth. Slaves produce wealth faster than foraging. Cato the Elder referred to his slaves as "talking tools". When machines were able to outproduce slaves, slaves became obsolete. This is why chattel slavery no longer exists in First World economies but can STILL be found in the developing world.

The origin of slavery itself is thought to be in ancient Mesopotamia, or modern Iraq,  but slavery probably arose simultaneously in several locations. As I stated, slavery arises in response to emerging life conditions. Mesopotamia was one of the first civilizations to evolve estate style agriculture and to move toward a notion of individual property. The parable of Cain and Abel is the parable of the advent of the agricultural revolution. Nomadic herders and hunter/gathers don't require slaves. Tillers of the soil do.  Who killed who?

African "family servitude" is not somehow different than European "chattel" slavery. There is no "But..." in the practice of slavery. This is a cop out. You are welcome to call African slavery simply "servitude" if you want, but I won't partake of that particular whitewash. The fact that Africans allowed slaves to intermarry their families and live in their homes doesn't change the nature of the relationship. Why? Because the nature of the relationship is what defines servitude. Again, slavery requires a notion of property, and property requires a notion of wealth. When you count people as accumulated wealth, you are a slave holder. Do you find that African slavery is somehow more palatable because it was perpetrated by Africans?

Precision is important. Yes, cultures evolve in very different ways given their unique environments, but this does not deny that all cultures DEVELOP through similar stages. Again, look at my analogy. A baby must learn to babble before talk (no matter what language), to crawl before it can walk, in any culture, at any time, in any place. Development occurs in a stepwise fashion in every culture....faster in some, slower in others. Just like a baby growing.

Ask yourself why every major dominant power in world history has a slave owning ancestry. Cultures that were successful in the slave trade evolved stronger economies which resulted in the greater accumulation of wealth and knowledge. The Arabs were master slave traders who plundered Africa before the Europeans. The Greeks and Romans were prolific slave owners who plundered the intellectual achievements of the Egyptian empires which in turn had accumulated vast stores of wealth and knowledge due to their own slavery practices. The Toltecs, Aztecs, and Mayans? Slave masters, all. The most powerful civilization on the planet today is also the perpetrator of the most abhorrent form of slavery and one of the last to abolish slavery! This is not a coincidence.

It is an intellectual and moral cop out to claim that anyone who studies the history of slavery is simply trying to assuage the guilt of their ancestry. The history of enslavement culminates with the European atrocities perpetrated on Africans. But this is only the terrible culmination, not the middle or the beginning. It behooves us to know the entire story from beginning to end to better understand why it was a successful development strategy and what can be done about this shared legacy.

One observation . . .

Today, many of the private corporations in the banking/ insurance, etc. industries and the families involved had a start as ACTIVE hands in the trans-atlantic slave trade.

Those who had their root in the trans-atlantic slave trade are those who today, as some like to put it are, "at the top of the food chain."

The two "elect" running for the president of the US are heirs to business, family and secret society dynasties which had a huge and active role in the slave trade.

I agree with this statement above but the fact that Praxis calls slavery of any kind a "successful development strategy" is quite frightening and devoid of any humanistic approach to analyzing history. Are we really more "advanced" than hunter gatherer societies? Development and advancement does not necessarily have to be accumulations of wealth...that is putting economics before humanity. All the economic wealth of the societies you mentioned are dripping in the blood of the exploited masses. That isn't advancement to me. That is inhumanity.

Bantu_Kelani
"If white folks excel at it, then it is prevalent and characteristic of their collective behavior."


I would agree with this if you are talking about White folks of a particular time and place in the historical record. I would disagree if you are saying that all Caucasian people that ever were and that ever will be are prone to violent and selfish behavior. This would nullify any notion of change and ascendancy in culture with is anathema to my particular beliefs.

So do you have any explanation of why Eurpoean culture "excelled" at exploitation and subjugation of the entire world?

"If it did I wish to read some literature or any documentary inscription relating to these chronic tribal conflicts in pre-colonial Africa you speak of."

K sorry, I write how I talk. Would HAVE not would OF.

peace and hotep,

ask oedipus what is meant by 'raping the mother(africa)'

bantu-kelani, please give me more references on the lack of severity of the last epoch of the pleistocene which began circa 35000  only to begin subsiding around 10000 bc(25000years of ice age habitation). conditions for huemen to change anthropomorphically tends toward a most sever climatic experience. from brown eyes to blue ones? from broad nostrils to thin ones? from big booties to flat ones? from a soul/rhythm to no soul/rhythm? sir nose d'void of funk? no, we funked up....yes that fuss wuz us......now pin the tale on the funky....glorihallastupid. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

as diop said 'civilization or barbarism'. cromagnon cannaballized to survive.

now lets move from alienation to anxiety.....

.....like alienation, anxiety in the western civilization and culture, stems from the origene of that culture-which rests fundamentally in the production of albino mutants from black parents in africa(poor oedipus). anxiety, like alienation in western culture, is the result of the rejection of these albinos because of their genetic deficiency status and their subsequent abandonment and migration northward to form what is now recognized as the 'white' race. this global white collective maintains a different appearace from the rest of huemankind, and they dislike this difference. therefore they tan and use makeup. they remain a minority of the world's people, surrounded globally by a black, brown, red and yellow global majority, the 'white' global collective remains genetically recessive to the black, brown, red and yellow majority.......

lives each day and each minute of every hour in the continuous fear of 'white' annihilation by the global majority of genetic dominants. (fear or a black planet....pe)

this fundamental fear of albino isolation, abandonment and gentic annihilation, is at the core of western civilization- a civilization structured to ensure 'white' genetic survival. this survival plan necessitates the subjugation and control of all non'white' peoples. i define this subjagation and control as the 'white' supremacy system-----DR FRANCES CRESS WELSING      


now to the narcissistic personality disorder.......

a. grandiose sense of self importance or uniqueness

b. preoccupation withe fantasies of unlimited success, power,
   brilliance, beauty or ideal love

c. exhibitionistic:  requires constant attention and admiration

d. responds to criticism, indifference of others, or defeat  
   withe either cool indifference or withe marked feelings of
   rage, inferiority, shame, humiliation or emptiness

e. two of the following:

   1. lack of empathy: inability to recognize how others feel
   2. entitlement: expectation of special favors withe
       reactions or surprise and anger when others don't
       comply
   3. interpersonal exploitiveness: takes advantage of
       others to indulge his own desires of for self-
       aggrandizement, withe disregard for the personal
       integrity and rights of others
   4. relationships characteristically vacillate between the
       extremes of over-idealization and devaluation

from the 'diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders'  published by the amorican psychiatric associaton. kinda reminds me of me........

if dr king could have coined the phrase 'chickens comin home to roost', i think he would have reminded us of that bad seed that we spawn. like "beloved'" , that seed is a constant reminder of our origenal dirty deed done dirt cheap(our castaways)  on our incited and angry 'white' children in the name of superstition/religion. our babies withe the bathe water. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

freedomisahapislave

Well your culture will thrive and grow or your culture will become extinct.
'Progress' is a 300 year-old European idea, and it is not interchangeable with 'evolution'. Every brute tyrant justifies his monstrous behavior in the name of 'progress.' The Europeans used the idea of 'progress' to justify the eradication of the black race. But what the idea of 'progress' masks was their insecurity about the fact that they were 'the new kids on the block.' Before 1650 or so, it was common knowledge that Greece owed it all to Egypt, but in order to make the imperialist game go, it was necessary to bury that history and maintain that Europe was the light of the world.

Time is the master? Well it depends greatly on how you perceive time.  Is it a straight line from past through present to future, as the West perceives it, or is it cyclical? Evolution can be liberation or it can be eternal servitude. In every moment exists the choice. Whether or not culture is a gift is also clearly a choice.  It can't be assumed that every new thing that comes down the pike is an improvement on what came before. I can think of endless examples to the contrary.

The big assumption of the white West is that it knows best. Everybody else needs to shut up and get out of the way of this 'natural' evolution.  But what underlies this arrogant assumption is nothing but stinking fear.

Rootsie

Revolutionary praxis is self-empowerment though reflection which leads to meaningful action.  A conscious moment which can transform past, present, and future. This is the means of true 'cultural development'.

Bantu you love to try to spoon feed the I words you try to put in my mouth. I never said anything about European Imperialism NOT making sharp divisions of the African tribes and nations. They obviously did. I did say that the act of conquest and plunder is evil in itself, of which there is proof that African Tribes/Kingdoms  participated in. I find it hard to believe you do not know what Plunder means when you seem to exude knowledge. PLUNDER: To take by force, steal.

My whole purpose of posting was to debunk this theory that Evil and Anti-Life began with the White Man. This is completely a racist mode of thinking. It is absolutely ignorant to believe that a diabolical nature originated with ONE specific people.

On what basis do you have to accuse me of upholding lies? Im not perfect, and I try my best to progress on my path, but I do not uphold one single lie.  It is quite obvious by statements that you have made that you are blatantly racist. Then you wanna come on here talkin about the SOUL.

Rootsie

Europeans no more invented the notion of progress than Newton "invented" gravity or Einstein "invented" relativity. Describing an existing phenomena is certainly not the same as inventing it. Progress is inherent from the moment of creation. no matter whether it is progress down a straight line or 'round a wheel.

Progress is a value-neutral term. Think of progression, or a series of steps. You would throw out a useful concept because of the misuse of one culture? I wont. Progress is a very useful word, as is hierarchy. These words are often vilified by those who fall prey to the obfuscation of liberal education.

Why must time be either linear or cyclical? This is another false dichotomy foisted on the world. Time displays the characteristics of most intangible physical theories in that it can be useful to speak of it in a number of ways, much like it is useful to speak of energy as either a particle or a wave. Time ultimately passes judgment on all evolutionary and cultural possibilities, but time seldom works its magic in the lifespan of humans impatient for immediate vindication. Such is life, it is not my choosing nor yours. Time alone will reveal what it wants, when it wants.

Nowhere do I suggest that anything novel must be good. Those are your value laden notions, not mine. I maintain the process is good, not every outcome. Sometimes you cook some food and it tastes delicious, sometimes you cook some food and it tastes horrible. Do you then vilify the process of cooking, or only your one horrible outcome? Exactly.

But I agree with your statement on the West, and your definition of praxis, though I am not a Marxist.

"I agree with this statement above but the fact that Praxis calls slavery of any kind a "successful development strategy" is quite frightening and devoid of any humanistic approach to analyzing history. Are we really more "advanced" than hunter gatherer societies? Development and advancement does not necessarily have to be accumulations of wealth...that is putting economics before humanity. All the economic wealth of the societies you mentioned are dripping in the blood of the exploited masses. That isn't advancement to me. That is inhumanity."

History is begging to throw off the yoke of apologetic humanistic approaches. Relativism is a curse.

America was built on the backs of slaves. America is the most powerful country in the world. Thus, slavery contributed to the wealth of America. Logic. Slavery is without a doubt a successful development strategy. This should mortify you. I'm glad it does. But this doesn't mean it wasn't profoundly successful. AIDS is also profoundly successful. A virus that allows its host to live long enough to continually transmit the virus through sex. Truly amazing, truly successful....if you are a virus.

Success is a value-neutral term. Don't be afraid to use language as it it was meant to be used.

You are quite correct in that wealth and power are not the final arbiters of a developed society. There are many measure of a society or culture. But some are more basic than others. For instance, the Taliban put a premium on allegiance to Allah's will as perceived by them. Not many people would argue that Afghanistan is "more" advanced that America. They may be a victim of America's imperialist designs, but certainly they are not more advanced. This notion actually goes to the heart of your original question.

I would like to return to that if time permits me in the next few days. Thanks for the discussion.

Hailininemperor:
  I also do not agree with Bantu_Kelani when she seems to imply that Europeans have an INHERENT tendency towards greed and violence, more than any other people.
  (I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, Bantu, and I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so forgive me if I'm misrepresenting your position).
  However, Hailininemperor, I think that WHEN BANTU KELANI'S PEOPLE COME FROM THE CONGO AND INVADE YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, SLAUGHTERING OVER 10 MILLION OF YOUR PEOPLE WITHIN THE SPACE OF A COUPLE YEARS, ENSLAVE THEM ON RUBBER PLANTATIONS OR WHATEVER NATURAL RESOURCE YOU HAVE WHERE YOU ARE FROM, AND SPEND THE NEXT CENTURY UNDERMINING ANY STEPS TO PROGRESS THAT YOUR PEOPLE TRY TO MAKE, ASSASSINATING PROGRESSIVE LEADERS AND REPLACING THEM WITH MURDEROUS THIEVING PUPPET DICTATORS... then, and only then, should you refer to her as 'racist'.
  I've noticed that when Black people refer to white people as racist, we mean they kill us, torture us, imprison us, deny us decent food, clothing, healthcare, etc. But when white people refer to Black people as racist, they mean we look at them funny and don't particularly want to hang out with them. THE TWO EXPERIENCES ARE NOT COMMENSURATE.
  I do think you are sincere, Hailininemperor, and have some good things to say sometimes even, however all that is negated by such PATHETIC WHINING about Black people 'not accepting you'.  For your own sake, stop it!!!

Again there is NO RECORD that hints the Black race committed wholesale massacres and atrocities to animals or human beings BEFORE the invasions of the Caucasian people from 671 AD onward. It occurs to me that the real RACISTS came from the Caucasus mountains. They kidnapped Blacks Africans to build "country" that was already occupied by people Columbus discovered and named "Indians". They enslaved, exploited, exterminated everyone that stepped in their way etc. etc. etc. To back up my claims I give a lot of contemporary and historical examples but you, you bring NO proof. Then there is no reason we should beleive you.  It clear you are in dire need of a history lesson. You really cannot debate issues such as this with puerile argumentations. And how is labeling me a racist challenging the facts on solid ground?? C'Mon hailininemperor!! Check yourself now! Why don't look at your own bias?

You blame only me? You engage yourself in the very practice you lament. So, are we conscious Black folks only to choose discourses and methods that White folk will like and "compromise" with your terrorism? You don't want to gain knowledge with real issues. You just want to wrap Black people in your web of escapist confusion. The "Black racist" card is hugely overplayed [smiley=cool4.gif].. Your accusation is no different from other immature and hateful white folks who love to say that Blacks are racists when they discuss real issues. I know how your types in their attitudes are simply those in favor of the status quo..please.  



I try to read what you write in your post but I can't understand what you're saying because what you say so many times doesn't make any sense. The Ice Age question I understood though, so I can answer that...Pick up any encyclopedia and read therein that the Pleistocene Epoch between 10,000 and 1.5 million years ago, altered with warmer periods, temperatures similar to those of the present day. Therefore the earliest humans hominids in the Caucasian mountains increased larger brain, sophisticated tools, improved hunting and gathering and use of fire. The gradual development allowed them even to expand to central Europe and the Caspian Sea.  I admit the cold environment these humans encountered far from Africa created racial differences. But remember they also developed pinky/white skin and pale hair as a result of permanently living in caves. They also appear to have been a warlike Homo sapiens sapiens. Several conflicts are attested from evidence of prehistoric bones of early humans that appear to have met death violently in some case with stone blades.

(cf. Past World, Atlas of Archeology - HarperCollis). I assume nothing I deal with historical facts based with radiocarbon dating evidence.


gman, you laid it out! Peace.


Bantu Kelani.

True . . I wonder of the logic of linear development . . . what factors are being measured? As the saying goes, "why gain the whole world and lose your soul?" If ones are measuring from the stance of ethics and spiritual development, we live in an extremely RETARDED and INFANTILE society.

For all the conservative European apologists who interpret the Trans-Atlantic slave trade as "successful"...although in your own post you say AIDS is "successful" to the virus(but is it to the host). Therfore slavery was successful to (the virus/AND the people who used said virus) and detrimental to whom(the African host). Slavery involved human beings, so unlike you...it is hard for me to look at an institution as "successful" in purely scientific anti-human terms...It may be the African duality concept I can't turn off...I can't seperate morality from science. Slavery isn't a lifeform of it's own(as in a virus), it is a system perpetrated by one human being on another...So therefore, since you are on Africa speaks, I was referring to the terms 'successful' and 'slave trade' from and AFRICAN perspective(of course)!

An unanswered question by some that has seemed to have drifted in the background...

Do you have any explanation of why Eurpoean culture "excelled" at exploitation and subjugation of the entire world?

I see a lot of fancy wording by thoughs who mastered "massa's" colonial tongue(I ain't English anyway so that means little), but very few answers to the origional question that was proposed...

Did some of you come here only to criticize other's theories, or are you willing to propose your own for this question?

Gman....You said it brother!
Bantu Kelani....we see it for what it is too.

As I stated in the last line of my previous post; I would like to return to the original question when I have time to post a detailed opinion. I think that there is some usefulness to all theories, and that even mistaken theories help to narrow the field of choices. I have all of 5 minutes right now, and that won't do. I think several viable answers have already been posted....though I also believe that there is no definitive answer for your question.

I can understand your take on the separation of morality and science. This separation is a very real gulf between Eastern and Western thought.

I speak as I was trained to.  I do not pretend to be something I'm not.

The destructive anti-life behavior of western societies result form a psychohistorical (not a psychogenetic) drive to gain prestige, political power and land as well as valuable natural resources. This drive to control the world stems form a mental state that is egotistical (not survival) oriented. Any manipulation by the biological substance melanin is minor or not effective  at all.  Your question has been answered many times. Go back and re-read the earliest posts in this thread that answered your inquiry. It's readily apparent you are in denial or selectively dismissing the response of our posts.

Moreover, English is the world's largest language, followed by Spanish, due only to both countries colonialist history. A language usage, necessarily comply with its inherent commodity. IMHO concerning Black people of today we might as well demonstrate our "verbal skills" and elaborate our discourses as to show that this is the age when Black men and Black women are no longer pigmies or Negroes, serfs or dogs but are definitely capable of mental dexterities. This is just statement I wanted to make, there is no offense intented.


Bantu Kelani.

Bantu Kelani,

I'm not in denial I was aking for responses from...(to quote myself) "all the conservative European apologists".   I have seen many African or African centered points of view on this subject but I would like to hear the groups explanation I requested from because they seem to be just critisizing everyone elses palpable theories, instead of giving there own.

As far as the language comment....We all seem to be efficiently communicating(I hope I don't sound illiterate)...that was also being directed to the group the response was requested from. Praxis was beating the definition of the word "successful" to death with his European/scientific explanation of it, not looking at it from an equally spiritual/moral balanced and/or African centered perspective....which he has acknowledged.

peace and hotep,

bantu-kelani, i do not expect you to understand that p-funk rhetoric that i love but you do understand.......

.....the isis (yssis) papers......the keys to the colors.
by DR. FRANCES CRESS WELSING.  [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

chapter 2: the origene of alienation, anxiety and narcissism.

the subject is why did europeans/'white' people do this to the world. welsing answers this brilliantly. in your last post you mentioned psycho-history. by chance, have you read kovel's "the psycho-history of 'white' racism" which is a much better than bradley's "iceman's inheritance: the origene of western aggression, sexism and racism".

please excuse me if i go overbored withe the abandoned baby sindrome. i can't help myself. it is just silly to me to believe that africans have not always been complicitous in their own destructions.

if our 'white' genetic children were never born, africans would have found other arrogant, stubborn and ignorant issues innately. we are damaged goods.

blaming 'whitey' will not suppress our own inherent weaknesses.

bantu-kelani, i know my effort to communicate withe you may prove futile. that's cool........

freedomisahapislave [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]          

Gman: I do understand that that Black people may be justified in not liking white people. And Im not saying that white people are not robbing and plundering the earth and its people as we speak. Cuz they are. But there are a "few" if that many, white people that truly care about equality, that truly care about humanity, and that truly want reparations for all the people that our race has raped, and slaughtered, and made their money off of. That includes all so called "minorities", and Especially Native Americans. I appreciate and believe in the posts that have discussed White's scrutinizing their thinking patterns and reasoning with other white people to educate them on the Truth. Of which I learn more and more. I do not have a problem with anyone not accepting me, as everyone has free will, but that does not mean Im not gonna speak when I feel the need to, as Everyone has free will. Since I do not have daily interaction with bredrin and sistrin, I appreciate the reasonings on this forum because it helps me to overstand more and more.

Bantu: I did provide you information from a book, I will admit that the book was published in 1926, but it was a book by a Black Woman who I feel that many of her viewpoints are backed with evidence. Not as much evidence as say Introduction to African Civilizations by John Jackson, but enough evidence for me to use it to make a point I was making. I will say that Im sorry for calling you racist, because I do not even know you apart from what you have posted. Anthony B has a song with the chorus "wise man keep it a still tounge, no talk too much", well Im still Developing the wisdom from that hook.

I will say again that my WHOLE purpose of posting, was to combat this theory that ALL White people are evil. Maybe I interpretated it in a misinformed sense, but as for me I believe statements like  "the anti-life behavior of white people" are racist statements. A statement like that is Generalization motivated by racism, and thus Hate. What if I came on the forum and was like "Black people always talk loud", somebody might send my computer one of them viruses or some shit. (dont worry I dont actually think black people talk loud) hehehe so dont send me no virus, sike im playin around. I just think that as Rasta people (Im still not exactly sure if most of the people on this forum are Ras) we all have a love for Africa, because if anyone educates themselves even just a little bit, they will see that Africa truly is THE Mother, and the Mother that has been raped, as well as the Mother that Will have Justice one day it will happen. Basically Im about One Love, cuz we all bleed Red. Of course One Love doest remove Justice. Strait Cant Lean. Until further reasonings. Peace.

You will find here mostly the perspectives of conscious Afrocentrists. I suggest you to post on forums dominated by white conservatives and liberal if you wish to see their perspectives. I myself often frequent their forums for the challenge to see if my theories are fair and can endure rational scrutiny. I do so and on more than one occasion I have found out that when challenged with rational and reasonable arguments white liberal and conservatives would rather give some lame reason, run and hide or incriminate than actually deal with the arguments being presented. This behavior has been displayed by 'hailiniemperor' and 'seshatasefekht7' after being challenged by the established facts I brought forth. We also have 'praxis' that is engaging in pompous dialogue with no substance. Perhaps it seems useless for us to engage in dialogue with them because what they have to say is at all times emotionally tainted. However, such endeavors have made my beliefs very refined and thus give me a staunch reliance in them. We have been so wronged that no fear, no intimidation will prevent me to scrutinize their camouflage that made them our missionaries 300 years ago, and it is the same camouflage that made them our leaders since physical emancipation.

It is clear this Reasoning forum (not exclusively Rastafarians in the first place) it is a place to share ideas and especially to learn something. So, let us interact with white conservative and liberal Africansists here. I am also interested to see how much they are willing to learn as well as their aptitude to share critical knowledge with Black Africans.  




Sincerely I don't understand what you write most of the time. But that is beyond your concern.


You like your consort have said nothing substantial to disapprove the facts except that you don't like what I say. That is not very interesting and not at all helpful or convincing. You might try proving your point otherwise. Also, correlation is not causation. Alnd the fact that the Caucasian cultures developed anti-life behavior fiirst their societies certainly prompts the causation of their cultures with such behavior. Then, let us ponder who influenced whom, that is an interesting question? It does forward the knowledge of the source and causation of the present global aggressive behavior. You ignore my mention of radiocarbon dating evidence, biblical and historical evidence why? Do you think Pythagoras, Homer, Herodotus, Aristotle, and the rest lied about what they saw? For what reason??

Again, consider the following evidence:
RELIGION
CUSTOMS
CULTURE
EYEWITNESES REPORTS
BIBLICAL SUPPORT
RADIOCARBON DATA
WHAT OUR ANCIENT ANCIENTS SAID THEMSELVES.

Sincerely, to simply ignore these evidences is idiotic, especially when there is no other evidence to challenge it.


I concur only engage in challenging discussions. Personally I only search intellectual challenges. The goal for me, in discussing with the members of this board is forwarding and seeking the TRUTH. If the exercise of discussing with me is futile to you, then do not waste your precious energy and time because that is not the path of truth seeking.




What is the name of the alluded author? Who published the text? Are these accounts by a nameless author confirmed by what other historical, anthropological, archeological study?? And lets not make pretend that anyone can't go out and find some meager study on just about any subject, with any angle, that anyone can imagine. Your approach to topics is very unacademic in nature and you utilize emotionally charged rhetoric with little substance. You gauge to teach me feeble history? You have no chance in doing that. I'm not ignorant  not a fool either.


Because you make a differentiation with the 'generalization' of white privilege that has been enjoyed by your people for several hundred years and made you be born in wealth off of your grandparents backs that caused my people to be born in poverty in 'generalization' as well. General statements are necessary to address the premise for white supremacy and Black oppression. I love to clearly demonstrate to you why your words are baseless and really biased. Read history, inspect the current domestic and international events...and learn something before you come here question conscious and educated Africans.


I have told you before this Reasoning forum is the place where most posters opinions are all over the political and spiritual spectrum. While on the General board the majority of posters there are Rastafarian and/or Christians. I have also told you to consider posting there if you merely seek a Rastafarian perspective. Don't linger here if you are dull of hearing frank perspectives from all over the political and spiritual spectrum.


You say it yourself! The one love escapist principle negates justice. Thus, are you the man Black people are supposed to believe?? Justice is human dearest possession and I know that you would do everything in your power to secure it. Nevertheless, it is your intention to deny it to Black people. You are foolish if you think that your One Love principle is going to destroy the ideals of fair and just Rights of conscious Black folks. The only true love, The One, the True Universal Love is greater and above to us as human beings. The One True Love is Ra, Sehkem, Chi, Brahman, Prana, Vodou, Spiritus, Ether, Anu, Allah, Jehovah, Great Spirit... all are its name. The GREAT SPIRIT we adore and worship created humans equal in every aspect, Black, white, yellow whatever we are. The Great Spirit is so loving, so merciful that it created us endowed with absolute freedom and Justice in the primeval times. However thousands of years later Caucasian peoples denied these fundamentals rights to the indigenous people of this planet. In doing so, they hurl insult to The All who made us to be in the fullness of ourselves! Thus, I do not hold any allusions about the intentions of the majority of white people. For you making comments full of false accusations of conscious Black characters it is easier than refining your own and that is okay. In the long run, it is you who will have to pay for your ignorance. As above, so below.

With that said I will gracefully bow out of this discussion because it does nothing for a Black woman to debate with people who will not admit one plus one equal two regardless how the equation is written. FIN.


Bantu Kelani.

I hope I do hear the perseptive of MOSTLY concsious African centered peoples....the reason I posed the question towards the European apologists(Praxis) is because it seems they are out numbering the African centered people(at least on this thread), which I didn't expect on a forum called Africa Speaks. I don't really want to talk to liberal/conservative  Europeans, I get enough of that on a daily basis...but it seems they are all over this site...Especially now that you called out a few names. I am generally new to this site and I haven't figured out yet what perspective all the posters are coming from. But I will learn eventually, thank you for the heads up...How many Africans are actually on this site as regular posters? It seems a lot of people are European and that is confusing me.(although some people, because of what they say are obviousely not African)  

seshatasefekht7,

I must agree with Bantu Kelani...your post didn't make much sense. The little bit I do understand I hope wasn't an attempt to blame African people by referring to the Isis paper's THEORY that Africans EITHER kicked out the albinos into Europe, or they had to move north because of lack of melanin and intolleance to the sun...She did propose BOTH as an option...and it is a THEORY not fact...a theory that Bantu Kelani and others have poked many holes in...

hailiniemperor,

I would think on Africa Speaks...you would be speaking to Africans.

Daniel 2:44

peace and hotep,



Oshun_Auset, so like welsing, bantu-kelani is a doctor?  

so how long must we wait for your radiocarbon data and may we presume that you produced it in your lab?

i am sorry but i have not witnessed  Bantu Kelani or others  poking  many holes in  drwelsing.  show us.   [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]



RELIGION, CUSTOMS, CULTURE, EYEWITNESES REPORTS, BIBLICAL SUPPORT, RADIOCARBON DATA, and  
WHAT OUR ANCIENT ANCIENTS SAID THEMSELVES support welsing, just read her book... she draws on all of these

bantu-kelani , i am not 'white' , or liberal but most africans in amorica that i know are very conservative.

bantu-kelani, my consort? do you mean DR FRANCES CRESS WELSING OR CHANCELOR WILLIAMS author of -----the destruction of african civilization.


i do not think that Pythagoras, Homer, Herodotus, Aristotle, and the rest were present during the last epoch or 20000 years of the pleistocene. they are only recalling when they were theives in the temples. who wrote oedipus rex or the history of daneas and egyptus?


again, say drwelsing is a black woman that you are in conflict withe. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

by the way Oshun_Auset, wasn't ausar's body was thrown in the ocean.

freedomisahapislave

Bantu I already provided you with the name of the Author. Go back to page 3 of this post and check yourself. I just got one question, and this goes to everyone. Do you believe that there is a whole Race of people that is evil and Anti-Life? And if you do how do you think these people can stop being evil and anti-life?

if I were a people, and saw what another group of people did to my people, continually, over time, I would eventually formulate a theory about this other group of people who was doing these things to my group of people. the theory would be based on the NEEDS of my people to survive based on previous experience with the other group of people. i am not going to wait to see if this other group of people eventually becomes better to my people, as historical evidence and experience has caused me to believe that if i wait, i may be destroyed . . . . .. i would then tend to develop a worldview that equated this group of people with negative forces

on your level . . . if a bully was continually beating you up, wouldn't YOU formulate a theory based on past experience which said "this bully is whack, he is mean as this is the behavior he has showed me constantly . . .so therefore I have come to a working conclusion that I do not want to associate with this bully as he brings nothing but negativity to my life."

the system of white supremacy has created white people into beneficiaries of bullies . . we can continue to deny this fact and get nowhere or face it and make some real progress. this is reality.

to one who much is given, MUCH IS REQUIRED. nothing in the overall cosmic balance is free . .. it is in white people's interest to overstand these natural laws, the law of MA-AT states that as a people, we as white people have a whole lotta waking up to do and responsiblity to take for our actions or the ALMIGHTY I gavel of justice is going to bring a verdict of guilty and no mercy.

Ausar's phalus was thrown into the Hapi(nile) river and a catfish ate it...and your point was?...

Peace and hotep,

From the beginning, [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

Oshun_Auset began this topic with WHY did Eurpean/White people do this to the world? then stated that socialism says that racism was created as an excuse to exploit other peoples. Racism or ‘white’ supremacy is based on black or non ’white’ inferiority. The necessity for racism is a direct result of the nullification of black inferiority. Racism is the lie that necessity  made truth. If necessity is the mother of invention then it was very necessary in the 18th century for western intelligencia to debunk notions of black supremacy because of the overwhelming evidence of non ’white’ civilizations found globally. Actually racism was used to cover up the true origin of civilization. This is why I refer to racism as ‘ white’ pseudo-supremacy.

For a moment, I thought   Oshun_Auset  was on point or well centered but then I saw this in the original post…….


‘Do you go with the Isis Papers Keys to the Colours theory,  the  Ice Man Inheritance theory, or the socialist theory...what explains European/White people's global and historical hostility towards people with melanin?....If there are other theories out there please explain...(I know of a few more about genetic grafting and alien stuff, that I didn't want to go into because I think they are a little far fetched and reactionary,”

(compares the isis papers with alien stuff)
Followed by this…..

"The Isis papers" says...Albino's leaving/being kicked out of Africa, therefore having a inferiority complex because of the lack of melanin(being allergic to the sun is not natural or man's origional state of being and is also only a conditions suffered by the minority), and therefore, like a bully who feels bad about himself, subjugates others to feel better, and sets up a superirity system,to combat internal inferiority because of lack of melanin... Also removes the female principle in spirituality because of the "origional sin"/birth defect of albonism.”

The isis papers is summarized  by a layman who totally dismisses Dr. Frances Cress Welsing , an intelligent African amorican woman. I  won’t bother defiending bradleys’ ice man.

Next post ---gman disses welsing

Next post --c-spot_rasta who is predominantly Scottish

Next post---- Bantu_Kelani and a version of Welsings ‘neurochemical basis for evil’ as told by T.Owens Moore, M.D. which shows that Bantu kelani can accept some of welsing…….but she blames the spiritual imbalance of  ‘white’ on melanine deficiency

Just forget everything else that welsing brought forth.

Next gman states,  ‘Bantu-Kelani: I don't know enough about the science behind melanin to really comment on that theory,’
Bantu_Kelani respond with ‘Well I encourage you to do some research, for this information is universally known.’ she ends by saying, ‘Divide and conquer techniques are only used against the darker people throughout the world and throughtout history.’  

Next oshun auset says, ‘ It also was not the English who first colonized Africa...First it was the Arabs, then the first European powers were the Portuguese...and like Bantu Kelani stated so eliquently,’

oshun , the hyksos was the first indo-europeans to colonize Africa


next cspot spouts

next Bantu_Kelani states I thought I have given you a logical explanation why white peoples partake in continuous anti-life behavior. It seems that I have done so ambiguously, so I am going to rephrase simpler if I can.

Bantu_Kelani actually used a portion of dr francess welsings THEORY(as told by  T.Owens Moore M.D.)  to undermine welsing

Next seshatasefekht post ‘destiny’

Next Bantu_Kelani states ‘it is imperative white Africanists learn the truth of history and abandons biased old programmed beliefs if they wish to bring themselves into harmony with the social and political issues of the African people. This imperative is also valid for Black folks who are asleep and dreaming in western worlds. ‘

Next  hailiniemperor  states ‘But it is my belief that Black Man and Woman were the first people of the earth, and that they existed for many years before white people. I am not trying to say that I believe that Black Man and Woman were the first people to kill someone. What I am saying is that the Anti-Life behavior originated with the first person that did kill someone.’

Next cspot rasta spouts

Next Bantu_Kelani attacks hailiniemperor with ‘On what basis do you declare that cultural genocide originates from the indigenous people of this planet? Can you refer me to an authentic record that confirm your statement? Or do you base this uninformed declaration from your ego defense system?’

The Egyptian people killed people who reminded them of seth. Red or ruddy people.

Next rootsie ended with ‘The Europeans were cut off from their African ancestry. They were like orphans, without a sense of their own roots. When Christian ideology came along, they built a world-view based on their own feeling of bereavment and lostness. They used material gain to compensate for their deep insecurity.  I don't think there is necessarily any one answer to this question. This is how I have been seeing it lately.’


Next kristine concurred with rootsis
Next seshatasefekht points to

the isis (yssis) papers......the keys to the colors.
by DR. FRANCES CRESS WELSING.

chapter 2: the origene of alienation, anxiety and narcissism


next Bantu_kelani lashes out at Kristine with ‘Denial and repudiation stem form the resistance to evolve to holiness.’

Next seshatasefekht with  more reasoning

Next hailiniemperor with more reasoning

Next praxis says   ‘ One particular race (White folks) did excel at the practice of slavery, but this had nothing to do with their skin color, melanin levels, or inherent wickedness. It was simply a terrible juxtaposition of developmental processes; psychological immaturity (retardation) with burgeoning technological sophistication’

Bantu_kelani says still  ‘nO ancient records show information that black Africans caused genocide, disease, famine and degradation to other peoples before the invasions of the Europeans and the sand people of the desert .’

Then she writes  ‘ There is no doubt in my mind the counterfeit historical and anthropological ideas and theories of European scholars are intended so the White Establishment continues its exploitation and oppression of Black Africans. Despite these well-known DISTORTIONS the whites so-called Africanists have the audacity to uphold these lies on Black forums. When conscious and educated Black folks relate the TRUTH, that has nothing to do with white racism, it is simply relating REALITY! I have come to the realization that most Caucasians know exactly what's going on. When they come to Black forums faking like they are one of us only to support lies and propaganda, I understand they are not interested in the TRUTH. They only want to refute the savage behavior so common in their nature. Poor souls.’

Next Bantu_kelani
Next oshun_auset

Next more tag-teaming along with  tyehimba, iyah360 and the thought police [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

freedomisahapislave

I should have been more specific...The Arabs were the first SUCCESSFUL colonizers of Africa...the Hyksos did colonize, but they also got kicked out of KMT...(the rearranged and perverted story of the Exodus)

You gave an interesting brief of what has been going on on this thread...but I'm not really clear on your opninion...I was asking opinions on the different theories, because all of them have some validity to me...Are you leaning towards a combination of the socialist and Isis Papers theories?(that is what I think you were saying)

By the way I didn't "compare" the Isis Papers with "alien stuff"...I specifically left out the alien theory and only metioned the Isis Papers, Ice Man Inheritance, and Socialist theories in detail for comparison...They are all THEORIES none the less....

Just as a side note . . . per the mention of the Exodus story . . . not to distract from the main thrust of this thread . . .

The Exodus story is one of the oldest stories in Africa . . . the Bushman have it as well.

I think the Exodus story was co-opted by those outside Africa(just as all mythology and religion was), turned into a historical event and today justifies some chosen people bullsh*.

peace and hotep,

oshun_auset, there is only one theory detailed in Dr. Frances Cress Welsings' "the isis papers: the keys to the colors". chapter I is called the cress theory of color-confrontation and racism(white supremacy): a psychogenetic theory and world outlook.

all of the other 24 chapters are comparative analysis based solely on factual studies.

i stand on the premise that we all victims and life on earth is a very traumatic event.  i know that the whole world has been traumatized. no ones are actually at fault. i was once told that we live in a continuing continuum and we have come a long way. ridding the world of arrogance, ignorance and stubbornness should be our only concerns. the world needs reparation. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

freedomisahapislave

I think it's really important that, while we can see the source of white aggression and 'superiority/inferiority complex,' this does NOT let whites off the hook. If we can see what we have done, we have to be accountable, whether we were originally 'to blame' or not.  All I'm saying is that the 'Isis Papers' theory should not be used for the purpose of allowing whites to say, 'Hey it's not on me. One love. Ok?'

When that guy is quoted as saying "Forgive them for they know not what they do..."  Well, we can know what we do when we see what we have done. And that is our responsibility now. To conduct ourselves with the clarity that the history of white behavior gives us, and not only behave differently, but act to address the historical damage. Reparations, for example, is in every white's self-interest.

Rootsie

your speaking truth rootsie, big respect. I completely agree, we as a human race, cannot progress forwards until we go backwards and work out where we're coming from. This will inevitably reveal some dreadful and sin-ful behaviour from whites, and we cannot ever reach the aim of equlity unless we address these shameful actions and look to 'heal' these (as far possible as it is to 'heal' 500yrs of raping, murdering and oppressing) before we go forward. As there is absolutely no way that we could build lasting equality without first addressing and 'repairing' where we have come from.

in specific relation to question, my opinion is that eu/white man has acted in such a way, due to a minority who have poised the majority with the capitalist ideology of greed, if there had been a few more powerful socialist influenced leaders in the western world, life would now be a lot more equal globally. Imagine being born into a world which had the historical foundations of a more communism (give what you can, take what you need) attitude, where all people help each other through choice, If leaders with ideologies like these had defeated the capitalists in the earlier days, the world would have developed in a very different direction, as the capitalists wouldnt have been able to breed their social class shitsdem which gives inequal opportunities and encourages division amongst humans, who are brainwashed into the rat race for money.

thanks for the time and space to reason, aker

Thanks Rootsie and Aker,
I agree with, and appreciate both of your statements.


seshatasefekht7,

Iknow there is only one theory in the Isis Papers...I don't know why you thought otherwise. My orogional question was asking for a comparison between 3(or more) competing theories from DIFFERENT sources. The Isis papers, The Iceman Inheritance, and the socialist theory on the origin of racism. Are you just looking for things to critisize and disagree upon? You posts seem a little strange.

Peace and hotep,

I believe that this whole topic is an effort to undermine a credible African female psychiatrist, frances cress welsing. Her theories should only be compared to the theorists of her field, psychiatry. Specifically psychiatrist.  [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]


Rootsie could not have said it any better by stating,

 “I think it's really important that, while we can see the source of white aggression and 'superiority/inferiority complex,' this does NOT let whites off the hook. If we can see what we have done, we have to be accountable, whether we were originally 'to blame' or not.  All I'm saying is that the 'Isis Papers' theory should not be used for the purpose of allowing whites to say, 'Hey it's not on me. One love. Ok?'
……….Reparations, for example, is in every white's self-interest.”


Rootsie would we crucify frances cress welsing  to ensure our own petit reparations struggle? Who’s next. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

Rootsie you say “this does NOT let whites off the hook”.

‘whites’  could say slavery does not let Africans off the hook either. the same argumemt for reparations works for them as well. be honest and admit that the world has been traumatized and needs repairing as well. fix the whole problem or continue to suffa. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]





Oshun_auset, I am sorry but here you lumped these three topics as theories: [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

"...I specifically left out the alien theory and only metioned the Isis Papers, Ice Man Inheritance, and Socialist theories in detail for comparison...They are all THEORIES none the less....

...Are you leaning towards a combination of the socialist and Isis Papers theories?(that is what I think you were saying)"

Oshun_auset, you lumped those three although after my last post you presently agree because now you state,  “I know there is only one theory in the Isis Papers...I don't know why you thought otherwise.” [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]



As to your original question : “My orogional question was asking for a comparison between 3(or more) competing theories from DIFFERENT sources. The Isis papers, The Iceman Inheritance, and the socialist theory on the origin of racism." [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

why should Dr Francess C Welsing compete with amateur socialist writers? how demeaning.....  


Again I say, Her(Welsing) theories should only be compared to the theorists of her field, psychiatry. Specifically psychiatrist.

Also for clarity, could you elaborate on more writers of the social theories  of racism other than Michael Bradley and his ‘ice mans inheritance. I would like to compare them specifically.  [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

freedomisahapislave

 Greetings everybody!

I noticed Oshun Auset mentioned the book "Yurugu" by African American anthropologist Ms. Marimba Ani in his opening post. As far as I have seen looking through this reasoning, nobody else has followed up on this book.

As I am currently reading "Yurugu", I would like to share some thoughts.

First, Marimba Ani does not answer the question of why Europeans became imperialist in the first place. On the other hand, she gives one of the best theories I have seen on how European imperialism persists, even though it changes its character. I think some of the confusion arises out of the fact that imperialism has taken so many forms: racism, slavery, colonialism, neocolonialism......

I have also been wondering if classic socialist theory really gives the full story, as it usually traces the origin of racism to modern capitalist slavery in the Americas. I think we can go further back, at least to the Greek and Romans.

Ani locates imperialism in the cultural logic of Europe. This cultural essence can be understood as a kind of deep structure of cultural mentality. She uses the swahili term "asili" for this essence, and the European asili is extremely aggressive and confrontational. She further says that this asili is extremely difficult to change, it requires that the members of the culture become conscious of everything they take for granted, which is not easy.... But it's worth trying, anyway, I think. Asili is unevenly distributed in individual members of a culture, so there would always be some persons who embody the collective mentality to a higher degree, and these are the ones likely to become leaders of that culture.

One of her main points is that whereas all cultures have some kind of cultural logic that is internalized in its members, and unconsciously determines their behavior, in European culture intellectuals and scientists have rediscovered this cultural logic, assumed it is universal and presented it to the world as if it were objective, universal rationality. This is the key to European intellectual imperialism: Europeans always pretend that their own group interests are the objective and universal interests of humanity. This false universalism has deceived many because European interests are disguised and it is therefore difficult to protect oneself against this. We all need to watch out for scientific rationality, which plays a major role in justifying imperialism.

When I first read this, I really felt that some pieces fell in their place. Suddenly the picture of how European cultural imperialism works became clearer.

I highly recommend this book, although its 700 pages and some advanced terminology.

Reviewers on Amazon either say the book is racist (the classic accusation against afrocentrism made by many white people) or that it is brilliant. Several reviewers say there has not been any serious criticism of her theory, so instead Marimba Ani is attacked for having changed her name from an English to an African one.

Tian

I'm sorry I'm not really an anal person, but bantu you seem to find something wrong with every single thing I say and then start gettin all mad at me about it so when I saw this I could not resist.

English and Spanish only have 341 and 322 million native speakers where as Mandrin and Hindi have 874 and 366 milion

Thank you for your response, I also forgot I mentioned the book Yurugu. Thank you for giving a brief on what you read so far. It is much appreciated.  You are "wondering" about the same thing I am about the 'classical socialist' theory. Although I am a socialist the origin of racism does stem futher back than the socialist theory gives mention to.


seshatasefekht7,

Let me clarify....There are 3 theories/explanations of the develpoment of racism...I am not trying to debunk ANY of them. I was asking for people's opinions on them...The Isis papers gives one explanation/theory, the Icemean inheritance gives another different explanation/theory, and the socialism gives yet another explanation/theory.  

The Icemean Inheritance is not synonymous with the socialist theory. They are different. The people that established the socialist theory are FAR from ametuers. And for me(and I assume many others), the ability to come up with theories is not determined by what college degree or training one has. Some people have inate abilities and intelligence that were never derived from study or "classical education". That may be your litmus test, and if it is, you are free to dismiss all ideas outside of the Isis papers if you wish. I wan't asking for that. I was asking for comparisons. So if you don't want to compare...than you don't have to, but others who don't have your "classical education" standards, may find other authors theories just as valid as those people's that are recognized as 'theories' by the establishment. I was looking for their opinions.  

Greatings,

i will confine myself to the discussion of socialist theory with respect to racism, as the writings of the other theorists thatyou mention are spectacularly difficult to get a hold of here in australia (as are the writings of most american afro-centric authors). While I agree that classical marxism has a somewhat stilted and narrow view of racism, i am not so sure that this is the case for more contemporary marxist or anarchist theorists.

The problem with the original marxist and socialist texts is that they were developed in an era of limited and VERY eurocentric historical thinking. Marx's treatment of non-european cultures is probably best described as being cursory. Indeed one of the chief challenges of more contemporary marxist/socialist thought has been to incorporate the growing understanding of non-western cultures into a view of historical development that did not include them.

My understanding of contemporary socialist or marxist views of racism is that they would regard it as being a set of practices that are a product of structurally produced inequality in terms of access to resources, power, and the capacity to define legitimacy. They would suggest that the development of industrial capitalism in western europe gave rise to a powerful (white) elite who then had the capacity to define the structural properties of the society that they created, most importantly who had access to power. this is acheived through having control of the engines of legitimacy such as eductaion, religious institutions, and the media to reinforce their hegemony.

While i have a general sympathy with these ideas they have a bit of a tendency to disallow the power of the individual.Yes racism is a broad structural trend, but it is also very much the cumulative effect of individual choices to behave in particular ways, and simply explaining this away as being the product of 'brainwashed' populations doesnt really gel with my personal experiences. few people i know are that conformist.

If i can add another set of theroies to the mix...

Giddens describes what he calls the theory of structuration. His basic idea is that society is composed of the dynamic interplay between individual choices and the social structures that enable these choices and give them shape. Seen in this light racism would seem to be both a set of individual decisions, which are supported and enabled by social systems, both formal and otherwise.

For example.... the institution of slavery was both individual choices (ie. i need some labour for my farm, i know i will go and buy a slave) and social systems (the legal legitimisation of slavery and all of its attendant infrastructure, ships, wharehouses etc). In contemporary society the formal systems for enabling racism are diminishing, but informal legitimisation of the practices stil exist, with regional and class/social based differences in terms of how much racism is regarded as being 'legitimate'.

of course all of this just theory and open to debate... and goes no way to explain the genesis of racism beyond it being another form of power based discrimination (like sexism, ageism, religous bigotry etc.) My question would be, is it actually possible to come up with a single 'cause' of racism, or is it, like other social phenomena, a complex set of inter-related forces?



love and life
paul

Peace and hotep,  

Oshun_auset , the only point that I tried to make by distinguishing psychiatrist from social scientist is that in matters of the human mind I would first consider the psychiatrist.
Especially if that doctor is Frances  Cress Welsing. I know that all levels of human activity begins in the mind, since as a man thinkest ,  he is.    [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

The only socialist writers that are important to me are the dystopic ones who write about countries of total misery and wretchedness which are real to me. As opposed to the utopic writers who envision a coming world of  peace through improvements in social interactions because historically power gives up nothing without struggle.  Wasn’t marx financed by capitalist?  Aren’t  his socialist  theories diametrically opposed to capitalist  theory?    How did communism and capitalism work together to undermine the underdeveloped world/ information poor parts of the world? [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

Oshun_auset  would you please define each of the three theories that you introduced so i may make a fair comparison.

Frances Cress Welsing quotes socialist writer Neely Fuller Jr. in her dedication of the isis papers.  He states

“if you do not understand white supremacy(racism) – what it is, and how it works – everything else that you understand, will only confuse you.”

She finishes her dedication by recommending that all non ‘white’ people worldwide read Neely Fuller Jr. ’s work,

THE UNITED INDEPENDENT COMPENSATORY CODE/SYSTEM/CONCEPT:  a textbook/workbook for thought, speech and/or action for victims of racism(white supremacy).

 In his work, Fuller discusses (and Welsing refers to)                   

NINE MAJOR AREAS OF PEOPLE ACTIVITY IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE

They are economics, education, entertainment, labor, law, politics, religion, sex and war which are social activities. However the racists(white supremacist) dominate non ’white’people in all areas of major activity.

perhaps this is why i cannot accept an accurate comparison of Welsing withe 'white' socialist writers like bradley and marx. they have different agendas.   [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

freedomisahapislave          

Psychiatry IS a social science as is psychology, Their all being behavioral sciences. As for the human mind, if it was an issue of the human mind than i would be more apt to consider a psychiatrists opinion, but a marxist/socialist theory on the origins of racism has little if anything to do with the human mind and more to with capitalism, imperialism and economics. One person's psychiatric explanation for racist phenomenon is no more or less valid that one person's marxist/socialist explanation of that same phenomenon.


Frances Cress Welsing quotes socialist writer Neely Fuller Jr. in her dedication of the isis papers.  He states

“if you do not understand white supremacy(racism) – what it is, and how it works – everything else that you understand, will only confuse you.”

She finishes her dedication by recommending that all non ‘white’ people worldwide read Neely Fuller Jr. ’s work,




I fail to see how white dominance/control of the 9 major areas of human activity validates the "Cress theory" or invalidates 'white' socialist writers like Bradley or Marx. Accepting for argument's sake that whites control all of these, neither of the explanations presented of why whites control all of these sheds any more light on the subject.

If one is really intent on getting to the bottom of this, certainly one could do some research and uncover more theories than this. The problem with the current explanations is that the Marxist/Socialist theory of racism, marginalizes the history, complexity and dynamics of race matters as they believe all matters of oppression stem from differences of class. The problem with the cress theory is that it is based in a hypothesis that if not being crude, poorly thought out and ignorant to certain matters of biology, history and anthropology (and that's being nice) at the very least is centered in areas where Cress the psychiatrist is out of her element scientifically speaking (and that's being nicer) As for Michael Bradley (boy we must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel now) He makes welsing seem Objective, well researched and thorough by comparison.

 

This is in general response to the last several posts...

The socialist theory of racism is not 'white'. There are many African socialist writers such as Kwame Nkrumah and Sekou Toure...I never mentioned Marx. Socialism is a principle like gravity, it existed before Marx, just as Gravity existed prior to Newton. Is gravity 'white'? Socialism is the natural extension of African communalism. Just because it wasn't true socialism under Marx, doesn't mean that socialism wouldn't work if properly applied. Communalism worked well in many African communities prior to colonization.(minimizing exploitation and oppression, I am not nieve enough to think that either would be eliminated).

As far as the theories mentioned, thanks for everyone's input,...If anyone knows of other theories on the developmenat of racism, I requested in the beginning to please discuss them,  It is much appreciated.

 

This is a little off topic, please forgive me for this if it distracts from the main point.



In an aspect, Marx and company co-opted the ancient idea of socialism and added their own stipulations and rules. I do not trust Marx but feel 'Capital' is a great critique of the secret lifeforce of capitalism. Revolution is often times co-opted by the powers that be . ..  look at French, American revolutions. Look at what is happening in Haiti now, this will show the workings of engineered revolutions. " . . .pararamilitaries have opened ships and stores for looting, capitalizing on the desperate poverty and hunger of Haitians to DIRECT THE  ENERGY OF MASSES into looting, in order TO NEUTRALIZE THEM POLITICALLY. . ."
http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=International;action=display;num=1077118013


People love revolution until the PIGS take over*

* see Orwell's 'Animal Farm'

Greetings,

First, thank you all for interesting input. I like the way this reasoning is going.

Paul,

I am familiar with your problem of getting hold of literature, as I live in Norway. I have found certain titles in the university library, the remainder I have had to order from Amazon as far as I can afford. In my experience, Amazon has a fairly good selection, but certain titles take several months to get, if they are out of stock or out of print. I've also bought some second hand books though Amazon. For an African Marxist view, I recommend Peter Rigby: African Images.

Seshatasefekht7 and Oshun Auset,

Although I am an anthropologist, I also consult psychologists and psychiatrists in my research. For the Afrocentric perspective, I have found Frantz Fanon, Amos Wilson and Na'im Akbar very interesting.

Nemesis23,

You draw our attention to the different focus of psychologists opposed to Marxists. I think their perspectives complement each other. Interestingly, the psychiatrist Fanon also considers economics, as do some others. Imperialism certainly has both economic, political, cultural and mental aspects. I am not sure if the origins can be located in one aspect alone.

Tian

Greetings,

This is slightly off the original topic of this reasoning, but I think it is relevant as we try to transform our knowledge of white supremacy into action.

I would like to add some personal reflections on my earlier post about Yurugu:

I would like to relate to personal experience Marimba Ani's key point, that European intellectual imperialism works by falsely presenting as universal and objective what is actually a subjective group interest. Relating abstract theories to personal experience has enhanced my understanding, especially of the emotional aspect implied.

A person I know well personifies the arrogance of the white man rationalising his own interests, even towards other white men like me. He is extremely political, strategic and "rationalist". He has a tendency to speak for both of us, saying "we agree that...", "objectively speaking...", or "it is logical that...", even if I don't agree. Often I don't object because I do not have the necessary facts to disprove him at the moment. Instead, I get annoyed.

On the other hand, and this is the dilemma, I myself also show this tendency to speak for others and present my own views as objective facts, although I try to unlearn my white man's arrogance. People who are conscious of their own interests and understand the nature of white male arrogance, react strongly when I do that. While many others do not object, I have been told that they still feel uncomfortable about me imposing my views on them, even though they are unable to articulate what gives them that feeling. It is very difficult to stand up against the false superiority claims of Western "scientific rationality" that Europeans invoke to disguise their self-interest at the expense of other people's legitimate interests based on their experience.

My personal experience is deeply involved in this dynamic, because I unconsciously show the same arrogance that I criticize. It certainly lies in the deep structure of the cultural unconscious since it is so difficult to break out of it.  I can only try to imagine how it feels to be African and be exposed to this on a massive scale.

It is so habitual that even I, who is trying to unlearn my arrogance, am still unintentionally showing it at the very same moment that I criticize it. This puts me in a dilemma as I would like to teach other white people about white male arrogance and how it affects blacks. I have been told that I replicate this arrogance in two ways: unconsciously, in my habit and style (intellectualism, claims to objective truth, "listen, this is how it really works"...), and even consciously, as I am kind of saying "all the other white men are like this, but I know better...".

My attention was drawn to this after a discussion I had with my wife, who is Asian, where I was trying to explain to her what I had recently found in my research. I never meant to teach her, a non-white person, about black experience of white arrogance in the first place, but that is how it turned out... (roles reversed!) and of course, she got upset with my arrogance.

Can we teach critically about the white man's arrogance even as we are still trying to unlearn it?

Or, do we have to liberate ourselves from our cultural habits before we can attempt to teach others?

Or, perhaps this does not matter that much if we only teach white people, who are at the same level of arrogance themselves?

It is not easy to live what you preach. Any comments, I would like to reason on this.... :)

Tian

Greetings all,

a fine set of questions Tian, particularly for those of us of european roots. In an ideal world no white person would have the effrontery to 'teach' other white people about racism. However... situations dictate that sometimes that may well be the only viable alternative, in which case the best bet, form my perspective, would be honesty. By this i mean that we do not claim to be liberated from the system and attitudes that manifest themselves as racism. I do not believe that this is a claim that any white person can make for themselves, but that it is for black people to judge whether we are capable of truly treating them with equality. It is a livity to be lived, not a set of labels to be worn.

To try and close the loop back to socialist theory, the field of Critical Theory may have some keys here. Critical theorists suggest that the aim of all research (and therfore of teaching)  is to expose the fundamental imbalances that often constitute much of society. So i would say that irrespective of your (and my) whiteness, we can certainly have a shot at illustrating, exposing, and highlighting the fact of racism to the students that we are lucky enough to come in contact with. Hopefully by demonstarting that this kind of pervasive imbalance still exists (and that it is not just a part of history) you can equip students with some of the tools that they may use to examine how racism (and sexism, and all othe forms of discrimination) may manifest in their own lives.

Oshun,

in your original post you stated that only European folk had subjegated the world, which is totally true. However is it not also true to say that but for a set of historical/political accidents it could well have been the mongols who were the first world dominators? They possesed the technical and military power to do it, an example of which was the absolute carnage they wrought upon the teutonic knights, who were at the time regarded as being the elite european military force.
They also seemed for a time at least to have the political nous to hold an empire together. Would all of this point to a combination of military/technical power,  the capacity for stable (often despotic) centralised political power, and most importantly an economic system that alllows for banking and trade which encourages expansionism as being a key factor in world hegemony?

just a few thoughts
love and life
paul

Peace and hotep,

Nemesis: goddess of retributive justice or vengeance. One that inflicts retribution or vengeance. An unbeatable rival. Retributive justice in its execution or outcome. A source of injury or destruction. (war god/seth) [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

Nemesis, you’re not Bantu_kelani are you. Just kidding……you say  

“I fail to see how white dominance/control of the 9 major areas of human activity validates the "Cress theory" or invalidates 'white' socialist writers like Bradley or Marx. Accepting for argument's sake that whites control all of these, neither of the explanations presented of why whites control all of these sheds any more light on the subject. “

I am only introducing Neely Fuller Jr . Are you now reading THE UNITED INDEPENDENT COMPENSATORY CODE/SYSTEM/CONCEPT?  Welsing recommends it.


Nemesis then you say

“If one is really intent on getting to the bottom of this, certainly one could do some research and uncover more theories than this.”

Please take us to the bottom line, nemesis. Have you done the research and will you enlighten poor ones…..?



So nemesis, you have a problem with the Cress Theory,

“The problem with the cress theory is that it is based in a hypothesis that if not being crude, poorly thought out and ignorant to certain matters of biology, history and anthropology (and that's being nice) at the very least is centered in areas where Cress the psychiatrist is out of her element scientifically speaking (and that's being nicer) As for Michael Bradley (boy we must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel now) He makes welsing seem Objective, well researched and thorough by comparison.”

Firstly, exactly what about the cress theory is crude, poorly thought out or ignorant.
Please refrain from slander. Just be specific. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

Scraping the bottom of the barrel?

Nemesis23 did you come here for  war? Why did you come? Glad you came……
Bantu_kelani
Oshun_auset , again I ask, didn’t capitalist  finance Marx.


THE CRESS THEORY OF COLOR – CONFRONTATION AND RACISM (WHITE SUPREMACY)  flies in the face of the reparations movement. As I said before, the whole world is suffering from trauma. The whole world must receive reparations. No ones can deny this. We must end the arrogance, stubbornness, and ignorance. The prodical  son is welcomed home. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

freedomisahapislave      

"Oshun_auset , again I ask, didn't capitalist  finance Marx."

Did I not state that I was never referring to Marx, of whom I believe did not apply true socialism...nor did he invent it?
Your question does not apply to me, I have never held up Marx as an example of how true socialism should be applied....The logical extension of African communalism is my socialist goal. I am trying to develop the African personality here. Capitalism is stragleing it...Is it not?

peace and hotep,

oshun_auset,  you say

"The logical extension of African communalism is my socialist goal. I am trying to develop the African personality here. Capitalism is stragleing it...Is it not?"

please show where african communalism is or has been practiced. i do not see it because the logical extension of african communalisms brought us to amorica.  africa was and is complicitous in its own destruction. the only african personality that i am witness to is one of arrogance, stubborness and ignorance.  [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

matter of fact, i do not know one contemporary african traveler to the amoricas who's mission is not economic opportunity. all of my immigrant co-workers are here withe no concern for the cultural/political well being of africans in amorica. it's like they signed some sort of document to not engage in political protest. yes, it seems like their hands are tied by patriot acts or something. here immigrants are used as union busters.....and that's cool. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

oh yes, and long before capitalism was strangleling african communalism, africans were strangleling themselves.  

africans today will never admit that depigmented africans have been ostracized historically. they would rather believe that their children chose a cooler climate for longevity's sake.
eurasia was peopled by leucoderms.

if i love my mother, why would i choose to be far far from her? when those depigmented african tried to re-enter the continent they got beat down.......

oshun_auset, unless repatriations are for the human family, rastafari doesn't need them.  it makes enemies of sufferers. [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

freedomisahapislave

"please show where african communalism is or has been practiced. i do not see it because the logical extension of african communalisms brought us to amorica.  africa was and is complicitous in its own destruction. the only african personality that i am witness to is one of arrogance, stubborness and ignorance."

This statement shows you have fallen pray to the Euro-centric version of his-story, and that you are no friend of African people, I will no longer communicate with you on that basis. If this site alone hasn't enlightened your mentality about the histoury of your own people(I'm going off of the notion you are African) than there is no hope for you.

peace and hotep,

the topic should have been

WHY DID AFRICANS DO THIS TO EUROPEAN/WHITE PEOPLE?
or is it possible that superstitious africans in prehistoric times exiled thousands of  their own depigmented/albino children because of taboos.

toni morrison's "Beloved" illustrates this subject of abandonment perfectly. the attempted murder of a child in order to prevent the sufferring of that child. only for the parents to be forever haunted by the memory of a dirty past deed.







oshun_auset, the concept of racism(white supremacy) is fairly new because white supremacy is based on a false idea of black inferiority. justification for chattel/ or generational slavery by european colonizers between 1500 - 1700ad  was based solely on labor needs and biblical rhetoric(and of course skin color was a better tool of class separation)l as j. a. rogers chronicles this in his 'sex and race'. before the 1700's there was no proof as to whether africans were inferior or superior.  because of historic miseducation in europe, rumors existed but the proof that africans maintained superior civilizations came only after the deciphering of the language of egypt/kemit. once the truth about the african origene of civilization was revealed there was a concerted effort to suppress the truth. that gross suppression of the truth is what we now refer to as racism and it began at that point of suppression.  circa 1750 ad.





the isis paper is sufficient.






oshun_auset, why make a post, try to bully your position or use reverse thinking when the agenda which you sat forth is opposed?







oshun_auset, why didn't you bully bantu_kelani when she regurgitated a portion of welsings' analysis to support her own bigoted agenda. reparations for african and not for humanity. if european/white people are as bad as some people here suggest, it is only right that the worst case should be repaired first. this topic suggests that white people are in desperate need of repair and if they are beyond repair we are  truly screwed.  




oshun_auset, your way or the highway. don't be such a bully. so is it ok if you communicate withe me as a depigmented european african who is still your chile?  






spiritual immaturity of a younger human population? hmmmm..
without an unyielding lust for power humans would have never developed walled cities, domesticated animals or engaged in agriculture. i would suggest that we all donate all of our possessions to charity because surely they exemplify our on lusts and spiritual immaturity.  




now that is the pot calling the kettle 'white'. i see that the majority of 'white' folks are as miseducated as the majority of black/non'whites. someone said ' the poor are made slaves by thoses who teach lies, by those who don't teach the true meaning of cause and effect.

CAUSE AND EFFECT

 



oshun_ auset, does michael bradley admit that the ICEMEN WERE AFRICANS......why not? welsing does. which socialist writer will admit that THE ICEMEN ARE/WERE AFRICANS?

 





oshun_auset, you are not admitting that your self have failed. if so, i think we should then agree withe you. i would not agree that you have or will ever fail in the face of european cultural excellance. you are not being subjagated or exploited presently? if so, send    s.o.s  or a message in a bottle.



















where has 'white' socialist writers like bradley or marx wrote about europeans evolving from africans like welsing. at least there is no doubt that white dominance controls the 9 major areas of human activity. innovative africans like welsing challenge the status quote without war or the destruction of the 9 areas of human activity. what some suggests would lead us to self destruction. like if africans/non'whites' ever received reparations without repairing our european/caucasion/'white' counterparts there would be war.
there should not be war unless we have totally exhausted our options.













THE PEOPLE OF KEMIT WOULD ROUTINELY EXECUTE RUDDY OR RED PEOPLE WHO REMINDED THEM OF SETH.

THE NEANDERTHAL OF EURASIA WAS REPLACED BY CROMAGNON/HOMMO SAPIEN SAPIEN(who origenated in africa)  




the body of ausar was torn apart and eventually brought back together with the exclusion of the procreative(or happy) part.

freedomisahapislave  [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]

According to information I have read, Seth is indicitive of the pole star that was visible only south of and at the equator. Horus was indicitive of the pole star visible at or north of the equator. If Seth is equated with the southern latitutudes, how could it be indicitive of "red or ruddy people" . . . aren't the ones closest to and south of the equator the darkest people in the world?  

Once again, anyone who thinks Africans are not CURRENTLY being subjugated or oppressed is not worth talking to.

Iyah 360 you are looking at a myth from the cosmological standpoint...the way all ancient myths of high esoteric science cultures should be viewed. Some choose not to do that.

peace and hotep,

iyah360, surely even 360 can be raised to a higher power. try 360 to the x power




.....in daily practice, it was necessary to have recourse to summary and potent rites, in order to bring about an instantaneous resurrection of the dismembered god.
    this was effected by simulating, side by side withe the vegetable and animal rebirth. a victim was sacrificed and its life taken, in order that this life escaping from the body of the victim might enter the body of ausar. sometimes  the victims were men, prisoners of war, or libyans with red hair, recalling the image of seth , who had red skin and hair; but usually a bull, a gazelle, or some horned animal, sacred to seth, was sufficient.......... a. moret, du sacrifice en egypte, in the revue de l'histoire des religions, 01/1908













metaphysical or physical

just how are oshun's quotes similiar? how are they different?
get on the band waggon.

seshatasefekht never said " Africans are not CURRENTLY being subjugated or oppressed is not worth talking to. ", because i speak withe caucasian africans and african africans all  of the time

how can we not believe that africa was not  and is not complicitous in its own destruction.

oshun_auset, it is cool that you have reduced your topic to personal attacks. sometimes i do the same.

however, i will not be in denial like a follower. every ones should think for oneselves.

THINK IT'S NOT ILLEGAL YET

freedomisahapislave

"seshatasefekht never said " Africans are not CURRENTLY being subjugated or oppressed is not worth talking to. ", because i speak withe caucasian africans and african africans all  of the time"

People who refers to themselves in third person are usually overly self involved and egocentric.

And there are no "Cacasian Africans"....there are Europeans who were borna and live in Africa. And there are Africans who are born on the continent or abroad.

Here is your long awaited example of Africa's pre-colonial communalism. There are many other examples, but I don't haver time to do the research...

Before private ownership(capitalism)

If this analysis of state and class is anything to go by then one cannot authentically talk of the state among some of the communities in Ghana before the 14th century. The predominant principle of social relations was that of the family and kinship associated with communalism. Among the Gur social groups in the Upper East Region of Ghana, for example, every member of the society had their position defined in terms of their relationship with their mother's or father's family. Leadership was based on religious ties to the Tindana, or custodian of the land, who ran the affairs of the people with a committee of elders chosen from all the families and clans of the territory. This committee administered land, the major means of production not as its personal property, but as the property of all the people in Gurum-Tinga (Gur land) who had the right to till it. Hunting, fishing and grazing grounds for animals were organised in a similar manner. No-one starved whilst others stuffed themselves with food and threw the excess away or sold it for profit. The basic economic law was that of providing the members of society with the necessary means of subsistence through communal ownership of the means of production. The absence of private property in the means of production, of the division into classes and the exploitation of man by man excluded the need for a state. Production was essentially of use values; and there was no alienation of the producer from his means of production. To a very large extent, this explained why the British colonial government had to create chiefs in Gur land and use them as instruments of its policy of exploitation and dehumanisation.

Africans skipped over the stage of slavery and were transitioning from an agricultural communal society to an agricultural feudal society where as most other nations went from communalism to slavery to feudalism. Slavery in Africa was minimal and not very harsh. Slaves were generally POWs and were able to earn their freedom in a matter of years and they held some rights. Slavery was prevalent in the Middle East and Europe.

There were fuedal states in Africa, but on the grassroots level they still had communal tendancies.

peace and hotep,

oshun_auset,  here is a little research withe sources.    

ghana is known to have emerged from the ambitions of a small but evidently vigorous people called the soninke, whose descendants now live along the flanks of the senegal river. for reasons that we do not know and probably shall never know, they made a bid to control their NEIGHBORS: according to an 11th century arab source, no doubt drawing on much older information, they were able to succeed because they FOUGHT withe iron weapons while these neighbors fought withe ebony. they needed and acquired a central organization under a god-protected ruler

("People who refers to themselves in third person are usually overly self involved and egocentric.")  [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif],

the ghana, whose title became the name of their state otherwise known locally as aoukar or wagadu. by the ninth century, if not earlier, they had won control over the westerly part of the western sudan in respect of two great items: their ruler and his appointees controlled the import of salt from the desert fringes, as well as the export of gold towards the north.

  by the eleventh century, when the first clear record of ghana becomes available, a large part of the western sudanese grassland was enclosed within a single system of imperial tax and tribute..........

   the old ghanaian pattern set the course of western sudanese history for more than a thousand years: time after time a strong central authority strove to impose its will on rival authorities and to hold these vassals in obedience, drawing its military strenght from conscripted levies and its financial power from the proceeds of intra-regional and export trade in gold and other goods and import trade in salt, copper, and manufactures from egypt, north africa and even europe. now and then the pattern was disturbed by invasion.........basil davidson, 'african civilization revisited'

and of course, within the empire for peaceful cohabitation,  no group of villages ever contain only one descent-line.......davidson, 'the african genius.

so communalism is okay if you only attack your neighbors...

freedomisahapislave   [smiley=lipsrsealed2.gif]