Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

The "Weight Problem" and African American Women

The first step toward making a change is identifying and acknowledging a problem. Sisters, we have a problem with weight and obesity in our community. According to current statistics, between 50 and 66% of African American women can be classified as being "overweight". African American women suffer from obesity at an alarmingly disproportionate rate when compared to women of other races.

There are a variety of reasons proposed for the high levels of obesity in our community. These reasons include but are not limited to socioeconomic factors, cultural expectations and norms, diet, and lack of regular exercise. Our emotions and feelings of self-worth also play a significant role with regard to attitudes about weight and overall health.


Defining "Overweight" and Obese

In the most general sense, being "overweight" is defined as an individual carrying more weight than normal for their height. Experts identify obesity as being 20 percent above your ideal weight based upon medically approved weight charts. Additionally, obesity can be defined as possessing more than 25 percent body fat.

The most widely used measure of weight status and obesity is the Body Mass Index (BMI). This is calculated by dividing your weight in kilograms by the square of your height in meters (kg/m2). The national and international communities have determined the following classifications:

Category
BMI

Underweight
Under 20

Normal Weight
20.0 - 24.9

Overweight
25.0 - 29.9

Obese
30.0 - 39.9

Severely Obese
40 and over


Health Consequences of Being Overweight

Individuals who are significantly overweight are at risk for developing a variety of medical problems, including high blood pressure, heart disease, high cholesterol, diabetes, heart attacks, and even some forms of cancer. Additionally, bone and joint diseases such as arthritis are made worse when one's body is overtaxed form carrying around excess weight.


It Can Be A Struggle, But You Can Do It!

Problems with weight are difficult regardless of wealth, fame or educational status. It is a struggle for many women. Oprah Winfrey, the celebrated television talk show personality, has had a weight problem, which she has freely discussed with the public. She tried many diets and supplement programs unsuccessfully, to lose weight. Oprah suggests that dieting and deprivation in the long run only generated an endless cycle of weight loss, overindulgence in food, and gaining weight again. A well-planned weight loss program with sustained results is needed.

By now we all know that when you get right down to it, there are no "quick fixes" or fad diets when it comes to serious weight loss. There is nothing that can take the place of a regular exercise routine, proper nutrition/diet and a reduction in the amount of calories we intake. Life style changes are the pathway to better health and weight lost.


The Need To Exercise

Physical exercise is not a regular part of the lifestyle of many African American women. However there is hope! The key is to find an activity that you enjoy and feel comfortable doing. A good starting point is walking, especially if you have not been exercising regularly in the past. Walking is one of the best and least expensive exercises there is. All you need is time for yourself and a good pair of walking shoes. Walking doesn't stress the body the way running does. Walking can help make your heart and lungs function more efficiently, help you lose weight, sleep better, and reduce stress. You should try to walk four times a week for at least thirty minutes each time.


Nutrition

If you want to lose body fat and improve your health, you need to increase your exercise and significantly decrease the amount of fat (both animal and vegetable) that you eat. The consumption of fat that comes from animal sources such as lard, red meat, pizza (loaded with meat and cheese), ham hocks should be minimized.

Fat that comes from plant sources like olive oil, peanut oil, canola oil, corn oil has not been hydrogenated (exposed to the action of hydrogen to produce a solid fat) does not seem to have the same corrosive effect on your coronary (heart) arteries. Eating more fruits and vegetables (at least 4 to 6 serving a day) is key.

It is advisable that you to drink six to eight glasses of water daily (given that you have no other medical conditions). Water is important in body heat regulation, maintenance of blood volume, helps you eliminate wastes and acts as an appetite suppressant.

Be on watch for more specific articles on ways to improve your nutrition.


Empowerment Points:

*Take ownership and responsibility for your health.
*Develop self-control and self-acceptance.
*Begin to eat a health-wise diet. There are many sources to locate good information on diet and nutrition.
*Begin to incorporate an exercise routine into your daily activities.
*Drink 6 to 8 glasses of water a day.
*Find your social support from family and friends.

http://www.blackwomenshealth.com/loseweight.htm

WHY SO MANY BLACK WOMEN ARE OVERWEIGHT
--And What They Can Do About It

Ebony, March, 2000,  by Zondra Hughes

THE good news: For the most part big beautiful Black women are self-confident, content with their lives and are not on a destructive mission to transform themselves into living Barbie dolls. The bad news: Obesity experts say that too many Black women are caring themselves to death.

The National Center for Health Statistics' reports that more than one-half (54.3 percent) of Americans are obese, with Black women comprising the most overweight segment of the U.S. population, followed by Hispanic women. Rubbing salt into the wounds of overweight Black women is the latest University of Pennsylvania Medical Center study that indicates that Black women have "a biological disadvantage" that makes it more difficult to lose the extra weight. Researchers have found that even at rest, overweight Black women burn nearly 100 fewer calories daily than their overweight White peers.

Dr. Otelio Randall, director of the General Clinical Research Center at Howard University, disputes the assumption that Black women are biologically disadvantaged when compared to Whites. He says some people are just simply more active than others.

"There are some people who are very active, or hyperkinetic, and they constantly burn calories, even if they are not playing tennis," Dr. Randall says. "People who sit watching television and who do nothing will burn very few calories, whereas the hyperkinetic people are sitting but are constantly moving and burning energy. Some people just burn a lot of calories and it has nothing to do with being Black or White."

Although obesity contributes to heart disease, certain forms of cancer, hypertension, high blood pressure and diabetes, Black women (like those,in other ethnic groups) are continuing to pack on the pounds, says Chicago obesity specialist Soundrea Hickman, M.D., founder of the Association for Improving and Maintaining Black Health.

"In 1998, the average clothes size for Black women was 18; today it is a size 20," Dr. Hickman asserts. "I think the mistake that is happening is this `full-figured woman' title--she's no longer considered obese, she's just full-figured--it's a death sentence for the Black woman. I'd like to choke the person who came up with that title because it's killing us, and I'm sick and tired of going to funerals of Black women in their 50s."

The question remains, in a society bursting with fat-free foods, exercise videos and health clubs, why are so many Black women steadily gaining weight? Some experts believe that Black women don't view their weight problem as a health problem. "I really believe that weight is a health issue, and if Black women don't see it as a health issue, then we need to educate them," says Shiriki Kumanyika, a University of Pennsylvania nutritional epidemiologist and an expert on race and obesity. "The long-term effects of weight on health for many heavy people are harmful, and it creates problems; once you get them, you can't turn back the clock."

Strengthening the belief that obesity is not a major health issue is a recent study conducted by the American Cancer Society (ACS) that has caused confusion and outrage among some obesity specialists.

More: http://www.findarticles.com/m1077/5_55/60059070/p1/article.jhtml

It's quite obvious the majority of Black American and Caribbean women are obese or overweight. The majority of Black men have brainwashed us as people consistently saying they like fat ass women and if a woman is not fat then she would not get much attention [smiley=dizzy.gif]...Never mind the related long-term health affects of being overweight are heart decease, hypertension, diabetes, and the list goes on. We all know that "fatness" is not healthy, so WHY are so many Black women ignorant who don't like themselves? I mean, what is more important than caring for our own health? Ladies, you definitely got to take care of your body!!! Because if you don't love yourself, how in the world then can anyone love you?  

Bantu Kelani.

I think this comment is misguided. I think we need to think a lot more on our idea of fat and overweight and how / if it is linked to health. Where did this idea come from especially among the black community? Are we really thinking of the health risks or are we thinking of the aesthetically acceptable norms in a eurocentric society? I personally know people whom society would think of as fat, yet are light years healthier in mind, body and spirit than others who are at a more acceptable weight and size.  Most of these so called healthy weight indicators do not take many things into account and are biased towards a Eurocentric view of size and beauty. Yes even the ones touted by ‘black magazines' and publications. Take a look at any ‘black magazine’ and the images that are portrayed. They are still the light-skinned, thin as a stick models that certainly do not represent what most of our women look like. I would find it difficult to take health advice wholesale from a publication that has such a narrow view of health and aesthetic.  

It is more likely for people to assume a fat woman is ‘unhealthy’ or ‘eats too much’ than a skinny woman without even casually examining the eating habits of either one. Somehow we can always think of the ‘dangers’ associated with ‘fat’ yet we never think of osteoporosis, problems in childbirth, not getting enough nutrients to the body or the psychological ill health that these standards of acceptability inflict on us. I am sure if we did some more research we would see ways where a fuller size is much healthier for some, if not most women.  We never take into account differences in metabolism, race, genes and indeed the person’s own individual aesthetic preference! While there may be some that see some more weight on a female as attractive I think they are in the minority. By and large we are all pressured to be thinner and conform to a smaller size.

I think back on my own battle with considering my weight. At 5 ft and obsessed with being thinner like all my friends I remember reading a diet book that told me my ideal weight should be no more than 105 pounds… WHAT!!! To me that is the weight of a child! But according to all their fancy PhD doctors and dieticians, weight indicators and charts, calculations and figures, that was the healthiest weight for my height and age. Nowhere did they take into account my broad back and shoulders that made people think twice before messing with me; my strong arms that could lift the same weight as any man; my wide hips that would make childbirth easier or my strong thighs that made me stand steady. They didn’t take into account my race, my gene pool, the build of my family, or my bone structure. I was reduced to mathematical equation:

    5ft + 105 pounds=health, beauty and perfection.

If I did this, Ahhh! Blessings would flow, my health would be restored and suddenly Gucci would be knocking on my door to be his new face of fashion right? Ha! Well I did buy it for a while and I went on every diet known to mankind. From eating nothing but this vile onion soup that somehow was to speed up my metabolism, to consuming carrot sticks and cucumbers by the bag, for what reason I can’t remember. Then there was the juice diet, and the other one that involved  eating an embarrassing number of grapefruits.  I can laugh at it now but then it was years of trauma, trauma that is still ongoing in many ways though I have found a better way to approach health. My battle is not unique. It is one that many black women and indeed many women of all other races go through.  

Now don’t get me wrong. I am in no way saying it is good to be unhealthy.I am saying that we may need to reevaluate this thing some more. They have changed up the game on us now, see? Before it was just the looks, then people started thinking, ‘but those models are ridiculously thin! That can’t be healthy’ But now with the new focus on health and fitness the battle of the bulge has taken on a new spin. Under the cover of advocating ‘health’ they give the thing a new kind of legitimacy.  Now the females in magazines are a little more ‘cut’ up, advocate going to the gym 3 times a week, eat nothing but salads or even worse go on the horrendous meat filled Atkins Diet that is all the rage and preach the merits of a ‘healthy lifestyle’ But guess what? Our new ‘beauty role models’ are not much bigger than the old ones! Whether black white old or young they remain no bigger than a certain standard.  Not that revolutionary is it?

At the end of the day the truth is that real people come in all shapes and sizes and certainly don’t fit into one standard of size or the accepted measurement of health. As a matter of fact, most  so called health nuts don’t even scratch the surface of healthy living anyway, no matter how much they can bench press. Being healthy requires much more work than that.  Some Rastas have maybe got on the right track when they speak of eating organic foods, eating what they grow, what they cook etc.  But health is certainly a more holistic approach to what you put into your body in general, not how many calories. It is care and regard for your self wholly and completely and it certainly extends beyond what we put into our bodies physically, but what we put into our minds and how we care for both.

People need to develop a more healthy respect for themselves in general and put that into practice in every facet of their lives. You may find that with a better understanding of yourself that there may be foods you do not want to put in your body anymore. Not because a diet or so called health book or study says so, but because you no longer think it is right for your body. You may never lose a pound, or maybe you will. You may never be the size that is advocated, or maybe you will… but aesthetic cannot be the focus; true holistic health is! So many people live the ultimate healthy lifestyle and drop dead of heart attacks, stomach cancer, and breast cancer, all kinds of things in their 40’s.  Maybe we should think about that and have a chat with the fat black woman, living in the country somewhere who has lived to see great grandchildren, has most of her teeth and a mind as sharp as a tack. Maybe we should think of people who don’t fit the standard yet never seem to really get sick often and are careful about what they eat and whom they eat it from. Maybe then we will get a better idea of health.

yan

I fail to understand your logic, so if I condemn morbid obesity I must be trying to support Eurocentric culture? Why the duplicity Yan? You know very well I am not talking about "a little fat", I am talking about "grossly fat". For the most part Black American women along with their Caribbean neighbors are far more overweight and fatter than their white counterparts, because they do not exercise enough and or overeat. Being 250, 300 lbs, or more is just not healthy for a woman. Burying our heads in the sand and pretend there is no serious issues, only adds to the problem at hand. Black males don't seem to have this problem in alarming proportion like the women do. And BTW why Black men say they "prefer" big women when large women are their "last choice" at the nightclub, gym, or any environment that has a lot of singles then?? Far too many of our sisters are crazy enough to heed their lies, eating the wrong foods that cause them to suffer much sickness!

Remember before Western civilization was made (which practice wicked ways of poisoning food and drink), Black women used to be shapely but ATHLETIC, ate right food and at the right time. Our ancestresses and ancestors were known to be the healthiest people on earth and lived hundreds of years! But western civilization has shortened the lives of Black people through genocides and the spreading of diseases. So, there is no way I'm going to encourage any sister or any woman to weight more than 250, 300 lbs or anything close to it. It's "unhealthy" and is correctly described in medical literature as "morbid obesity"! How can we possibly reach a high level of physical, mental and spiritual health if we pollute ourselves? If we do not care of our own bodies, how can we care for the planet and expand mental and spiritual awareness? You can speak for your 'healthy' spiritual life experience Yan, but that is certainly not universal for many Black women out there who overeat as a way of numbing themselves to life.

Most women of Black American and Caribbean descent are overweight and should seek to lower those high levels of body fat. Because the body is our temple and for us women, it's the temple for LIFE! Our sisters who are obese and grossly overweight should not avoid taking responsibility to maintain a healthy and reasonable weight. Denial in the direction of healthy spiritual life makes no sense, and never will. Let us love ourselves by eating healthy food like we used to before western civilization was made.  

http://www.obesityresearch.org/cgi/content/abstract/4/2/109

Bantu Kelani.

Well I have a question: Are all women who are looked at as fat suffering from obesity or other eating disorders? All women? Regardless of social conditions, culture, geography or personal aesthetic inclination?

What I was trying to convey was that we need to think about this better and think of health in a more holistic way because weight is not the only indicator of health. If we start from the other way, adjusting lifestyle and not focusing on weight we may get it better. As I said, I know women who would not meet any societal standard of correct weight for 'health' yet they are VERY HEALTHY, IN ALL WAYS. Their bodies are completely in tune with what hey need to flourish. I suppose unless one has encountered such a woman it may be difficult to comprehend as all we see is images of heaving, 'unhealthy', sweating, fat women that are our media fed image of ill health. Indeed weight is not always conversely related to eating. Western or modern standards of weight and health are certainly not universal truths. As a matter of fact, no one culture or group's idea of size is universal.

Many people do indeed bury themselves in all sorts of distractions, food included to escape their own feelings of insecurity, but by the same token many (like I did) also attempt to fit into a standard category of weight to hide deeper insecurities.  When we speak of morbid obesity, are all women in this assumed weight category unhealthy or at risk for diseases? Let’s be a bit more discriminating. All fat women may not be unhealthy and all thinner women may not be healthy. This is a fact, but one that I guess maybe a bit hard to get. And yes I am speaking about all the weight categories that are deemed unhealthy 200, 300 pounds and over.  

I find it interesting that so many images of our goddesses were big women, with large hips and thighs and breasts and stomachs. I also see many women in traditional African societies who are fat, blatantly fat and who are revered for it, for their abundance of size. Indeed the way many of us eat today is quite unhealthy, however what is to be said of a woman who maintains a healthy diet, who is careful about where she eats, from whom she eats and about the cleanliness of the food yet still weights 300 pounds? How do we judge such a woman? Should she then now seek to run 5 miles a day and go to the gym to reach an acceptable weight because this is the accepted standard of health, or get in tune with the needs of her individual body to come to an understanding of her own health?  How are our bodies built for what we wish to do with it? If I wanted to run a marathon then I certainly would have to live a different lifestyle but it does not mean that my current body is any less healthy for how I want to use it.  While I may be able to carry children far easier and have a less chance of osteoporosis, the marathon runner who may be considered ‘healthier’ than I, may have those problems and others later on. We simply don’t have cookie cutter bodies. This is not a one size, one standard, fits all kind of thing.

I certainly never accused you personally of supporting euroccentric culture, although many people despite how informed they are may still be subject to eurrocentric views in many ways without realizing it. I must wonder of these studies and these institutes and the body type that they based their standards upon. I am sure not one of them has visited tribal African societies, Aboriginal societies, those of Samoa and the Tahitian islands and many others to study how women in traditional settings live there, what they eat, how their genetic makeup may influence weight distribution and health, how their culture influences size and their own standard of size and beauty and health. Do some of these women who are big live longer or just as long as their maybe thinner western counterparts? Can we even measure health that way?  Are they just as healthy?  And can we even place two disparate cultures along the same continuum of health? What diseases are they prone to? What diseases are they not?  What was their quality of life? Also what the needs for their body and how does their size and weight accommodate those needs?  Things to think about…

Anyone who is uncomfortable with the body they are in is welcome by me to change it however they see fit, but I cannot buy wholesale the 'fat argument' when I have seen, lived and know different.  We may well be trying to tailor fit our bodies to accommodate a society that we all profess to 'hate'.  

yan

With all due respect Yan you are in denial. Read for yourself the myriad of health medical statistics and you'll see what they all points out that the over consumption of fatty foods, junk foods and fast foods plays an important part in creating obesity, arthritis, high blood pressure, allergies, diabetes, ulcers, heart and other circulatory diseases, hormone disturbances, anemia, weak immune system, other generative diseases and other poor states of health. Of course, that is not to say that obesity is not related in part to genetic relatives but the fact remains that the development of obesity among males and females in the western world is commonly due to excessive consumption. Many researches on animals as well as individuals suggest that in the face of abundant poor and poison food production the populations of those countries are unhealthy overweight. And Black women are the fattest group of women in those countries. But Black women are certainly not the fattest group of people on the planet!

It seems I'm not the only one displaying "Eurocentric bias" in this topic, because if you really observes various researches on cultural studies as well as longevity around the world, you notice that the Bantu women as well as of the Nilotic women in Africa, rarely suffer maximal malnutrition from over consumption of sweetness and saltiness in fatty foods or -even rarely suffer from bone diseases although they live in poor countries. I know what I'm talking about I am Congolese Bantu. I assure you that within an environment of extreme poverty Congolese people have developed a successful resilience to malnutrition disease by eating simple food, mostly vegetables and fruits. As industrial food is scarce in Congo it also seems the majority of people are returning to raw food and raw juices..
Furthermore, no one saw firsthand any people during ancient times, so HOW can you compare the symbols and images of "archetypes" of Neolithic cultures to indigenous human beings? The depths of the depictions of Goddesses were crafted to represent apparent generosity and fertility. And it very likely that such images prevailed circa 4000-3000 B.C in ancient Summer, Babylonia, Canaan, Anatolia, Crete and Mycenaean. Far back in time the Goddesses and Gods of indigenous people of Alkebu-lan were scarcely human or even animal. Early deities of the prehistoric African people (Twa or Bahutu for instance) looked like the rock form, which they were carved, blank and monolithic, almost featureless faces which evoke the mystery of the Grand beginning. Thus, be objective if you can and accept that Bantu and Nilotic people in their overwhelming majority cannot be connected to westerners if we judge by longevity and appropriate weight associated with health..unless they are killed or sickened by invasions or sanctified genocides, extreme poverty and industrial pollutions perpetuated by those who continually keep Blacks in state of oppression.

I could understand you being offended if I was making false accusations but from readily available statistics what I'm saying is absolutely 100% true. A body built on high quality, natural, whole organic food is of higher quality than a body built on poorer quality commercial food or fast foods industry. How can we become seeker of Truth if do not even have a vigor of intellect and diet? HOW can we follow spiritual life if we indulge in appetite, which brings physical debility, and deaden the sensitive organs the Creator Source, Mother Nature, the Cosmic Spirits  and the ancestors would not be recognized? To disregard this popular belief that Black men "prefer" big women (which is primary based on hypocrisy) is good because it cleans the lies of mind and causes to eliminate the poison stored in the blood. Our ancients ancestors didn't make a distinction between energizing and beautifying the physical and the spiritual, why should we? In fact, purifying and honoring the body as the physical aspect of the Spirit bring us to "love", because when we love ourselves, we worship ourselves as the temple of Divine Spirit that impels us to innermost love, healing and enlightenment, this is important.

At any rate, this topic is not meant to bash Black sisters habits, just to inform. Because even if I don't always agree, I can only LOVE, respect Black women choices, Black love, and Black families.


Bantu Kelani.

I am not fighting or attacking anyone here. Nowhere in my statement did I say that there were NO obese people or that there were NO overweight people.  I also never said that eating foods that are not good for our systems is a good thing. I stated that we need to look closer at our standards of health and weight and decide better for ourselves the merits of the standards that we are working with.  I definitely feel that this is an important topic for Blacks to engage so will pursue it and continue to raise certain key questions. I ask again:

Do you feel that all women who are big or fat or in excess of 200 or 300 pounds are obese? Do you believe they are all overweight?

Also, where exactly from my responses do I seem to be in denial?

yan





*I will be away for a few days without sure computer access. If I do not get access between today and Monday then I will definitely examine any responses on Tuesday - Yan

Yan,

I have no objection to the theory that heavyset people can be healthier than our slimmer counterparts, only if they are healthy under exercise and healthy food habits.. Even myself, I have experienced the problem of carrying around extra pounds. I was fat for about 10 years living in France and the US with mainly sedentary work and abundance of food to eat. In Congo where I was born and lived for 19 years I was slim and athletic. I was healthiest possible, eating more fresh/organic food on intermittent rations and doing hard physical labor. But in the West I became a fat adult as a result of depression and bulimia combined, and a conscious and not so conscious desire to keep men at bay. Fat was a wall of protection against intimacity because I was ashamed of my own sexuality, force of character and intellect.. I was so insecure and morbidly unhealthy. I couldn't, squat myself or lift things from the floor, I couldn't climb a steep hill, I couldn't go exercise, I couldn't keep up with life!! Like the majority of fat women, being fat for me was indicative of severe depression, character flaws, laziness, lack of self-respect and greed. So, I know what feeling unhealthy and fat feels like. Fortunately, 2 years ago I had a wake up call when I started to develop my spirituality, wisdom and freedom.  

Industrialized societies do not teach us to practice to eat the right foods. Notice how western countries have all kind of varieties of foods to eat. It would kill certain animals if we changed their diet to which the western world eats. Because the nature of these societies is not to give or prolong our lives. Their nature is to shorten our lives and they do a good job at doing it for 2000 years. With all these reasons readily known, you still support the theory that it's Okay to be 200 or 300 lbs overweight. It's certainly not all right to be 200lbs, 300lbs on a 5'0"- 5'5" frame. In my case, at 5'8" I never weight more than 280-300 lbs. Fact, The fatter you get, the less you move. The fatter you get, the less you live. When was the last time you saw a fat person make it past 60? And even if you have seen a fat person live beyond 60 I bet you don't see many of them do it. Every medical journal, every doctor is going to tell you that carrying all this extra weight is not good for us, that losing weight will have tangible health benefits.

In industrialized, mechanized, left brained, unbalanced partriachy societies Black women are grossly overweight and suffer radical diseases and great depression. I mentioned to you some of the related poor states of health affects of weighing 100lbs to 400 lbs overweight. But it seems you say it's Ok, that's why I said you are in denial. Look at hundreds of thousands of good sisters continuing to eat the type of food our enemies put in their stomachs, and see them shorten their lives because they refuse a little self-control and a nudge in the right direction. Black women are the fattest group of women in industrialized countries, they are the fattest group in the fattest coutries. It really scares me to the core of my soul.


Bantu Kelani.

Baby Got (Fat) Back, Good or Bad?
By Bill Alexander, BET.com Staff Writer
http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,c1gb9042-9907,00.html

A hippy, full-bodied African American woman has a cultural charm that has been rhapsodized by the poets, but hypertension, stroke and heart attacks are too often on her menu, says the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

For the 28.9 percent of African American men and 50 percent of African American women who are obese, avoiding death must now be put on the front burner – ahead of gobs of salty gravy, greasy burgers, fries and hot sauce.

A sizzling statistic, some 400,000 persons dead in 2000 because of obesity and physical inactivity, puts the lie to a midnight bag of onion rings and ketchup giving comfort to the soul of a body sprouting roots on a couch.

"African American adult females have the highest obesity rate," CDC Public Health Nutritionist Annie Carr told BET.com.

"Single-parent households live under continuous stress," noted author and psychiatrist Frances Cress Welsing said in an interview. "Oral patterns, such as smoking and eating,
often stem from early dependency deprivations."

Lack of hugging and attention, and proper diet and care are childhood deprivations in evidence in this generation, where TV acts as babysitter, surrogate parent and companion. Some 21.5 percent of African American children (ages 6 to11) are overweight, nearly double that of their White counterparts.

A recent CDC study concludes "the risks of obesity in adulthood appear to be greater in persons who were overweight during childhood and adolescent years."  In so many words, the study makes clear that TV food ads piled appetizingly on top of one another and complete with the lip-smacking sounds of cooking steaks and burgers and pyramided visual epiphanies of ice cream and pudding "cues eating" for "a child who is not hungry and begins television watching."

The government, like a pretzel, sends out knotty, winding policy conflictions on the issue. While HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson excoriates Americans for being "too darned fat," the U.S. House of Representatives is poised to pass a so-called "cheeseburger bill" barring consumers from suing the food industry for making them obese.

"Obesity is an epidemic everywhere in America, but more with Black people," said Howard University Professor of Nutrition Lolita Kraul.  "It is a complex issue; psychological, the sociological and the family dynamic all play a role."

Kraul said fast foods are often a diet fixture in a lower socio-economic household because of the "socialization" factor: "Lonely people go to McDonalds to meet their friends."  She said she recommends walking as an exercise, "but many women are afraid to walk around their neighborhoods." So she advises them to put on music and dance around the apartment.

She also recommends turkey burgers, egg substitutes and inexpensive frozen vegetables. "I tell them to avoid canned foods because of the high levels of sodium needed to prolong shelf life," she said. "We can make choices that will keep us alive longer."

Cynthia Frisby, an African American assistant professor at the University of Missouri, has introduced sex into the obese and overweight equation in her study  "Does Race Matter," which examines the attitudes of 110 Black women.  "In our culture it is normal to be hippy, so Black women who watched a series of ads depicting thin, attractive European women were unmoved because their own self-esteem was so high and they were comfortable with their weight," Frisby said to BET.com. "Black men are attracted to a heavier woman, so the Black woman's body satisfaction is much higher."

Dr. Andrea Sullivan, who has a doctorate in Naturopathic medicine and practices on pricey Connecticut Avenue in Washington, D.C., dismissed these notions and studies.

"We are stuffing our anger" with binge eating and junk foods, she said. She cited women who have been sexually abused, who "eat and eat so they won't be attractive anymore."

She said too many parents send their children off to school with Twinkies, soda and potato chips. "No wonder the children can't think," she says. "They're so full of sugar, they can't sit still."

Sullivan vigorously labels overeating as "gluttony and decadence." She counsels a simple 10-minute walking exercise daily: "Small things done consistently make a difference." And then, like Howard's Kraul, she says choice means everything.  "We had to eat chitlins and fat back when we were slaves. There's no need for that now."

Do we put too much emphasis in society on obesity, or should African Americans make the issue a higher priority?

Well I am glad to hear you share your personal experiences here.  And I think you have proven one thing: you were unhealthy at the weight you were. The life you described was no life indeed. Not just because of your weight that limited your movement but you were psychologically unhealthy and unhappy. Your weight gain was manifestation of this… in your case. However my points still remain on the table:

1. Is everyone who is at that weight unhealthy,overweight and obese?
2. Are these standards and the standard makers objective? Upon what basis have they measured health as correlated to weight?
3. Indeed, what is health at all? Is it measured solely by how long a person lives for example?  Is it the quality of their life?


I agree wholeheartedly that many people in the west live on an unhealthy diet, and lifestyle, both fat and skinny ones so to me weight is not even relevant there. I cannot readily accept that someone is overweight, obese etc through casual observation or through the standards that western indexes use to measure them. As I believe I said before, even at the smallest I ever was in my adult life, these standards judged me as overweight, and this was while I was living an active lifestyle, swimming, lifting weights in the gym etc so I do not buy their standards at all. I also know several others who would be judged as overweight who are in fact quite healthy. I thought the point I was trying to bring across was quite simple. Not everyone who is considered fat by these standards is unhealthy, or indeed OVERWEIGHT FOR THEIR FRAME OR LIFESTYLE. As a matter of fact it may be actually unhealthy for some to put unnatural rigours on their body to force it to conform to an unnatural size.  

The standards of ‘obese’ and ‘overweight’ can indeed be quite flawed and I say this based on my personal experiences and the experiences of others that I do know quite well. There are females and males who will never fit into the ideal bracket of western size. The point is that this needs more than a casual observation. I remember years ago watching Oprah Winfrey struggle with her weight, how she swung up and down trying to conform to that size standard that she was never able to maintain for a long period of time. May it not simply be the case that she is a bigger woman? And her frame supports and was built for a larger size?  Her story is not unique. There are many people who face this situation and make themselves sick, ironically trying to make themselves healthy. Having a larger size does not make one unhealthy, but being unhealthy does make one unhealthy!! You see what I mean? We cannot simply accept this carte blanche correlation. I have known people who run marathons, who lived at the peak of physical condition drop dead as young as 30 and watched others live to ripe old age who did not fit this standard. Which brings me to another point: can we judge health by the length of someone’s physical life? I think that definitely limits our existence to the realm of the physical and you know that that is but a negative reflection of our true state of existence. Our level of health is simply not determined by our weight. Many of these people studied may indeed live unhealthy lifestyles and indeed be at risk, however I doubt that every person who is judged overweight is unhealthy, even in a casual sense.

You said:  
Indeed I do deny that weight and health are a direct correlation and i stand by that. However I am not in denial about the health risks that result from unhealthy living and stated that from the very beginning of this reasoning. I do not buy many things about western standards across the board, not least of all their so-called scientific studies and medical breakthroughs.  We must come to a more holistic understanding of health. Anyone who finds himself or herself obese should begin with their doctor and seek advice there. All are free to try all the methods known to them to achieve the body that they believe will bring them health and attractiveness…until they realize or begin to wonder whether they are fighting a useless debilitating battle with nature and decide to come to a better understanding of how their bodies work.  We all accept that many things about western society are grossly flawed so I do not see why this should be any different. As with everything else, weigh, measure and find your own definition by seeking other informed opinions. Learn your own body and not the cookie cutter image that others have chosen for you. If health is about how you feel then your experience with your weight cannot be a total indictment on others who may happen to share your former weight but maybe not your experiences with their own bodies. Neither are my experiences with weight uniform. People’s experiences are different and their bodies are unique in whatever shape or size they find themselves. People should examine all possible views, examine their own feelings on health both physical and psychological and come to their own decisions.

Why are you trying to say that me encouraging Black women, who is the fattest group in the fattest countries, the responsibility to maintain a healthy and reasonable weight as to not suffer the ravages of obesity is immersing myself in western culture?? This is a pretty ridiculous presumption. Those values I promote are reflecting and are being centered on ancient African principles. Our ancients' ancestors (like people living in societies more harmonious and balance with the ecology of the planet) enjoyed excellent health and athletic bodies. Being slim and athletic was the basic spiritual teaching and practice set by the initiates of old in Africa. Read the Pyramid texts and other indigenous sacred scriptural texts preserved across the millennia in tablets, stones and legends and you will see what I'm talking about. I'm surprised you don't know the lives of indigenous Africans required a discipline of spirit, mind and BODY, beyond the practice of typical western people who eat poison foods and drinks, and try to prevent Black people of today in eating other than good foods. That's what I'm trying to say.

Those ancient values centered on "ancient African principles" will enable a spiritually sensitive and more physically healthy life in Black women and all people of this planet. Black people are systematically oppressed, killed or abused. Our people are shortening their lives because they eat poison foods and suffer from "severe" laziness and irresponsibility, like myself before. So, I know frirsthand how our enemies are expert at provoking depression, a lack of self-respect and greed to name a few to discharge Black people of the feeling of well-being in body and mind! Thus, there is no way I'm going to support this political correctness and this whole "It's okay to be yourself" theory, I judge detrimental form a concerned and aware Black African point of view. In thinking so, I'm certainly not immersing myself in western culture. In any case, it's not all right to be yourself if you are a 300 lbs or 400 lbs obese who can't see your feet and can't do aerobic exercise. Regardless of what you say, there are very few conditions where carrying extra weight is not a problem toward health. It's quite obvious the health risks related to obesity are undoubtedly a major dilemma for Black people!

I recur, there is no getting around the fact that Black women are the fattest group in the fattest countries. Our sisters need some serious lifestyle changes to overcome this epidemic or it will reduces their level of health and very probably shorten their life one way or another. That's the evil scheme of our enemies who are out there subtly or overtly murdering Black people to take our resources. If Black people (Black women especially who give birth and carry life to its cycle) do not take serious lifestyle changes then our worldwide oppression, extreme poverty, genocides and the harmful effects of diet that accelerate obesity and other physical and mental diseases, will eventually eliminate Blacks from the planet earth. Let's not allow this abomination to happen!  


Bantu Kelani.

my time is short but i just wanted to interject with a few thoughts.

The discrimination and abuse that face females who do not fit into the catogory of the western ideal in terms of (weight and size) is immense. So much so that many who don't fit this ideal often lack the mechanisms to see through the illusion and thus  have very low self esteems. All the social mechanisms reinforce the illusion that if one doesn't fit the western ideal size then one is overwieght and unhealthy. The fact that this is a very damaging illusion doesn't negate the fact that there are people who are termed overweight, who are unhealthy, but those that fit that western size aren't necessarily any healthier. To begin with, the western notion of health, and what it means to be healthy is filled with illusions, insecurities and commercial greed. Companies fill their bank accounts by perpetuating these insecurities.

Furthermore, even using western definitions, because there may be a correlation between health and wieght, it doesn't mean that there is a causation effect, i.e their weight doesn't necessarily cause their ill health.

The discrimination that people face from pervasive false standards is a reality.

Fat: I am a Woman of Size: http://www.rootswomen.com/articles/Woman_of_Size.html

Why are you both referring to WESTERN CULTURE when I referring to ANCIENT AFRICAN PRINCIPLES! In the beginning indigenous AFRICANS were slim and healthy, most literature of the Khemit and indigenous texts will confirm that. In this thread I realize that giving the justification of supposedly endorsing "western culture" is good reason remaining in denial and not take the responsibility for the development of not only one's mind but BODY health as well. Moreover Black women are two to three times more likely than white women to be obese! In addition, Black women experience MORE social pressure about their weight, and are significantly less likely to suffer the ravages of obesity due to economic power. To compare White woman and Black women experience is too simple and flawed.

Bantu Kelani.

I will not in any way encourage anyone to lose weight or put on weight. This is completely against my belief that people must be free to make their own choices once they do not infringe on by ability to make my own. I have been simply presenting other points of view that are not usually considered in these discussions. I am not telling people who may have eating disorders that it is ok to be ill, but i am making the point based on my experiences that there are big women who are quite healthy and  that one model for me does not fit all.

The issue of weight as it relates to health in the way it is usually discussed contributes to a kind of size discrimination and a subtle form of race discrimination. I think it is high arrogance for me to just assume that a big person is overweight or obese without trying to get the person's view on how they feel about their size and weight and worse yet, to give my opinion on their weight or size that is unasked for.

It is my belief that the traditional model used to measure ideal weight and size as it relates to health is based on white European models and standards. I do not abide by those and I cannot encourage anyone else to do the same. Those who choose to conform to them or see some good in them are free to do so in my book but these are not universal standards.

I would like to pull out a few quotes from your post that I found ran the gamut of puzzling, to alarming to completely untrue:



HUH???? Where did you get this?? I would like you to read carefully what I said and pick out where I stated that you, Kelani, are immersing yourself in western culture.



Well this is certainly not true. Nowhere in these texts was a size or weight stipulation placed on development. Being slim? Being slim??? [smiley=veryangry2.gif] Where was this stated? Please quote the text and the lines you are speaking of.



On the contrary, I think the views I have stated are anything but politically correct. The standard view seems to be  just what you have stated here.  I have stated unequivocally that people in talking of health need to develop a more holistic view of health that is not tied solely to weight loss or weight gain. It is quite ok for anyone to do as they please with they own bodies as far as I am concerned. However I have never advocated ill health within the parameters that I have stated to be a good thing.  You keep assuming that when I say I do not see a direct correlation between weight and ill health that I support the consumption of foods that do not benefit the body. This was your interpretation, not mine.



I do not even know what to say about this statement. I find it extremely ugly. Read it again and ponder the implications of what you have said very carefully.

There is an extreme and palpable danger in using a culturally exclusive standard to judge all people. It is also erroneous to make a link between two factors weight and health that as Tyehimba rightly said may be sometimes related but not universally causal.

I repeat that I have never stated that ill health was a good thing. In each of my posts I said that diets should be adjusted and that we do not always eat foods that benefit our bodies. Somehow you assume that a healthy eating person is a ‘slim’ one and that a fat person in all cases is someone who does not eat healthy foods. Well I do not know where you would get that idea but I have no evidence of this being true. Indeed there are people that are medically obese. Some of these people may be at risk for several diseases, however some of them are not. There are also slim people that are also at risk for several of these same diseases and others. The idea of overweight as a disease-causing factor is tenuous as best.

I would like to know, where is the data carried out by Africans on obesity in Africa? Where is the data carried out by Indians on obesity in India? Or on obesity in China? Unless this data is examined or studies are even done then any discussion on weight and health will always be one sided and tipped on a European scale, as Europeans certainly seem to be quite obsessed with weight and study it constantly. I have never met one ancient African principle or saying or tenet or teaching that saw fat people as sick or unhealthy or stated that they could not achieve enlightenment or development because of their size. I would really like to see the justifications of this statement and the evidence that our African ancestors of whom you speak advocated weight loss and an ideal body size for health. On the contrary, the only view that I have ever come across is that in some cultures, (and no, I do not speak of archetypes here) fat was revered as a sign of wealth, fertility and attractiveness.

yan

No offense to you and your personal "heavyset healthy" experience, but it has NOTHING to do with the majority of obese Black women who are likely to die at least 7 years sooner than those who are slim, meaning that in terms of life expectancy. The World Health Organization suggests that obese women lose an average 7.1 years, while men lose 5.8 years. From a practical view, obesity is a silent killer of many Black women. Black women are two to three times more likely to die because of obesity. This is a PROBLEM that we need to get a handle on. So, WHY then act like it's Ok to be obese? And while you identify my posts as puzzling and classify them as fallacious somehow... You should begin to say your own posts as very naïve indeed. You bring the "me conforming with White European models and standards theory" as if it's exclusive to White people to care for one's health and that it's not an expression of commonly held views by many people the world over who have acknowledged the importance to look over their diets as a way to create peace, harmony health and spiritual growth. India is one country that has maintained its responsibility for one's population health. There are also millions of people in various indigenous cultures around the world who have been found slim and experience good health and longevity. The practice of eating less with healthy live food so one can improve enough life force in the body is clearly described in the Vedas, which is the ancient spiritual scriptures that are somewhere between six to eight thousands of old. The science of Yoga and the science of Ayurveda also teach the same pillars of eating less and an acceptable body weight (20 pounds, not more overweight). Ancient African philosophy teach the same pillars, as well as Taoism, Buddhism, Pythagoreanism, Jainism and Sikkhism. Those teachings are carved into stones, on tablets and scrolls for thousand of years. Of course don't blindly believe my saying, check for yourself. I listed SEVEN sources...none of which are contingent on weak anecdotal evidence that you think, so I'm confident in my opinion.

The ancient Africans were honored for the purity of their thoughts, spirits and bodies. Read Orpheus and Homer. These so-called Greek intellectuals said Black Africans in ancient times followed a very strict regimes based on special roots and herbs that tented to strengthen their body tissues as to permit them to bear the highest vibrations. They claimed by fasting and through following a strict dietary regimen, the average ancient African was slim and light as if they didn't have body at all. Myself, I have never perceived an ancient depiction of obese indigenous "human being" in my whole life. As for the plump depictions of archetypes Goddesses, well there are ARCHETYPES and are never meant to be perceived in their actual form. They are images that come form our unconscious and are certainly not representational and can never be fully be disposed of real human beings. So, to me your point is utterly mute. Further, a significant number of people live under the poverty level all over Africa, therefore I wonder HOW a toiled and often hunger lifestyle is conducive to obesity?? Which is EVIDENT you ignore it, who is the one exposing European bias here?

Your attitude that tends to rebuke Black people who care how too much excess body weight can ruin our health and claim it's a White phenomenon, is the continuous response which causes our people to experience things like morbid obesity, hypertension, heart attack, kidney failure, fibroids, cancer, heart disease, diabetes and the other fifteen hundred disease that seem to be caused by our poor eating habits. It's too easy to say "I comply with White models and standards" rather than acknowledge the link between obesity and poor health because of the foods obese people eat. We always like to say that so and so is obese and is healthy for some odd reasons but this is no excuse for us to learn the art of developing an acceptable body weight standards for HEALTH only not standards set by the cunning and murdering western world who eat very poorly. (BTW, eating less and developing an acceptable body weight is not a back door to anorexia. It's easy to tell if one is undereating because there is noticeable weight loss and a lack of vitality.) Thus, it's ill intentioned for you to assume I endorse White culture or even anorexia (alone).

I dislike repeating myself wastefully and to the extent that we cannot or have not measured across broad agreement lines. At this point, we will have to agree to disagree...FIN.


Bantu Kelani.

Well it is quite possible that you feel you are repeating yourself because you are not really addressing the questions I have put forward. The underlying point of my reasoning is really quite simple. Fat people are not necessarily obese or suffer ill health.  I have advocated good health and proper eating as much as you have, where we differ is my point that healthy eating does not necessarily induce weight loss nor is weight loss necessary for good health. You keep choosing to distort my statements. I have said that an unhealthy lifestyle is not good yet you continually speak of healthy eating as a way to be slim or a proof that being slim is better or healthier than being fat. Healthy eating and living does not always bring one to a standard size, as we are not standard!  The variations in our bodies are multitudinous and I find our differences quite glorious! Again I will address some points in your post:



The point being made is that fat people are not necessarily obese or suffer ill health, and that is all!!! It certainly does not warrant this entire defense. It is one thing to be talking about obesity and quite another to assume that all fat people are obese or unhealthy in some way. You also insist on making this discussion personal as though i have made any assumptions on what you believe or comply with. A reading of my posts will show this quite clearly and i have clarified it for your benefit more than once.


I am saying again that it is not ok to be obese but not all fat people are obese and to give the impression that full figured or fat = obese is wrong. Full stop



Well this is questionable given the number of Indians that are poor and suffering and starving  and their late acknowledgement of having an AIDS problem. I wonder where you would get the idea that Indians are healthier than anyone else or that they have made a special effort to keep their population healthy. You may have to provide some evidence of this.



This may be true. Eating less is good. But eating less by itself does not mean one will develop spiritually or one is necessarily healthier simply by just eating less. It also does not say that those who eat less are guaranteed to be smaller than those who eat more. This may seem to be a casually accurate statement but I can assure you that it is not. It also does not prove your running assumption that all people who are fat are fat because they eat too much or are unhealthy.



As far as I know, this is totally untrue. Nowhere in these books they give a standard for weight and size.To even define what is overweight is modern crap. As I asked before please quote the lines or the text of which you speak. I have searched and also consulted others who have a fair knowledge of these texts and they know not of which you speak.  If you, or anyone else is reading this post. can quote areas of the Ayur-veda that speaks of health and medicine and stipulate a standard size or a reason why being slim is healthier than being fat please enlighten me and post your source and lines here.



Well saying they were carved in stone does not say much. Most ancient texts speak about the importance of good health. But as far as I know they never condemned fat people or stipulated a particular size for people, so again using these texts to impute something different to what I stated is no evidence. You will have to bring quotations from these texts and sources to prove what you are saying here. You mentioned that this was stated in the Pyramid text in another post and I requested similar clarification on this, which you have not yet provided. I have found no evidence in my readings to support this so as you assert it I believe it is your responsibility to back up your claims.



Purity of thought and body says nothing about the size of a person



Well you are quite free to that interpretation, but still the slim paintings on walls in the Pyramids could be also said to not be the actual form of the people but we do have stories and cultural traits that go with these depictions and it is a known fact that many cultures valued a woman of size.  There are historical reasons for this. It is my belief that archetypal images are representatives of the ideal. They may not be an accurate example of what all people looked like, but I do think they represent a physical, spiritual and aesthetic ideal.



Well again you are either misunderstanding or deliberately distorting.  There are several examples of cultures all over Africa where fat is revered as a sign of wealth and prosperity as I already indicated. The fact that some people in certain times throughout history starved says nothing about the traditional health of African people, as the famines did not affect all Africans. Are you perhaps saying that throughout African history, all people have always been poor and starving so they could never be fat? Well I find that to be a very silly statement if indeed that is what you are imputing. It also does not change the fact that traditionally and even in modern times in societies that remain traditional in many aspects, there are fat farms  eg Mauretania that make females bigger to make them more attractive.  

As a matter of fact African societies have always made attractiveness a product of functionality. Understanding that a fatter woman was better able to survive famines or food shortages and feed the young ones is what made them attractive to people. It was based on simple survival not simple aesthetics. We must not discount evolution and cultural particularities here.



Well first off I have been reasoning with you quite fairly and I do not think to disagree with you means to rebuke Black people in general. I also think it is a wild speculation to assume that ‘morbid obesity, hypertension, heart attack, kidney failure, fibroids, cancer, heart disease, diabetes and the other fifteen hundred disease that seem to be caused by our poor eating habits’ are particular to people that are fat. Poor eating habits are poor eating habits, full stop and many people regardless of weight have them. I have never advocated poor eating habits. However as I have said countless times, fat people do not necessarily have poor eating habits and eat too much and they may not always be at risk for these diseases more than thin people. They are as much at risk as anyone else regardless of size if their eating habits are poor and are general in a state of ill health.  I hope no one else misconstrues my comments to mean that I am advocating that people go get fat. I am simply stating a fact that not all fat people are unhealthy and not all fat people are obese or need to lose weight. You cannot continue to make this baseless and causal link and expect that I will let it fly.



Acceptable by whom? And healthy by what standards? Unless you can bring some concrete evidence of traditional societies that have imputed a specific size or weight for health then I can only see that as an invalid argument. I say again, there is no standard weight or size that is ideal of acceptable to all people.

I end again with asking for clarification and proof of some of the  ‘evidence’ you say you have provided. Again anyone else who may have this information, feel free to share it. I certainly was never under the misconception that to reason meant to agree or that the parties must come to some agreement at the end. There are many people reading this reasoning and it is my responsibility to express these alternative views as clearly and as accurately as possible, for their benefit as well.

yan


On an interesting note: [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

Contrary to the western obsession with tall and thin beauty icons, many men in Africa find fat women attractive.
(http://
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39618000/jpg/_39618013_pog203.jpg)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3304161.stm

Well, your posts are also puzzling. I couldn't resist replying to them one more time... so it goes.

Your picture is supposed to prove what? I have lived in 5 countries in Africa (Congo-Brazzaville, Congo-Kinshasa, Angola, Tanzania and Benin) as well in Europe (France, Spain, England, Germany) and the US. I have had an extensive look at people in these countries and nowhere natives Africans are as fat as people in industrialized countries. You think throwing this picture like confetti as if all people were all fat in Africa is going to make your point? And I never said native Africans have been dealing with hunger since the dawn of times but I have said that MOST native Africans have been enjoying good health because they were lean and light due to proper diet and exercise for thousand of years. Even a fair number of native Africans in the face of extreme poverty today still experience good health as a result. Check my own home country DR Congo. This single picture and article you are throwing is clearly a misinformation and doesn't speak for the entire continent of Africa. Again, I am native African. I know firsthand what cultural beliefs we value. Being fat and obese is certainly not our fancy as we value health and life. You have no clue what native Africans think and feel but only what you have access in western media. You have never lived there. As far as I know, you have never experience neither what life is like nor the typical native African looks like on the continent FROM YOUR OWN EYES. I did that makes me either a truthful witness according to my intellectual and the five senses or direct cognition experience or a liar, decide for yourself. On the continent obese people are VERY few, as we all know how obesity is the cause of many diseases. So, nice try but your point is mute again.

As for the proof of my argumentation, like the verity that the Sacred Texts of old teaching DISCIPLINE and purity of mind, spirit and body is not enough by itself? Have you ever seen a person practicing everyday discipline of eating and being 100 lbs to 300 lbs overweight?? To say so is willful denial or utter foolishness. And yes, women can be "big" if they are proportioned or athletic. They can carry 20 lbs or perhaps 40 lbs overweight, which is quite adequate to support the physical function of the body but certainly not 100 lbs to 300 lbs overweight!  At this point, a woman is not overweight but obese. I know personally how it's the origin of some pretty severe constrain physical conditions. I was fat myself 2 years ago I still remember. For instances, you can't squat or lift yourself straight up after sitting on the floor. You can't climb steep hill without gasps and exhaustion, you can't run, you can't make love lengthy. Overall, you can't live the great blessing of life properly. Fact, the slimmer (but healthy) you are the faster you walk and the higher your energy level is. I have done enough endurance sports (power running, dancing, cyclotouring etc.) to know that the 150 lbs sister kicks the [censored] of the 200 lbs sista.  So, why denying being SLIM and FIT is a good thing and contributes to a longer life expectancy? BTW my dear, your last article and opinion is irrespective from the views of the majority of Black men out there (sheer hypocrites they are) who PREFER slimmer women at the nightclub, gym or any environment that has a lot of singles. At any rate, I excuse their uncouth attitude towards Black sisters, regardless of our sisters being fit or obese anyway. Unlike the majority of our male counterparts, I absolutely don't care about what I could do with their slim bodies in bed. But on the contrary I care about our sisters' health and longevity in this planet where we are the most VICTIMS of all kind of overt and covert genocides perpetuated by those who continually keep Black people in states of oppression. So, I think you may need to look at these latter facts. I bet you won't. Then we will have to agree to disagree again that's indeed the point of this whole thread.  


Bantu Kelani.

I wonder why you take this disagreement over specifics like if we are at war. I am engaging this debate because we have debated racism, gender discrimination and colorism and I strongly feel size discrimination is another of the negative discriminations to look at.

Having said that however, I really don't know how I am supposed to respond to this post. Are you telling me that living in Africa in the 21st century makes you an expert on ancient African principles of diet? And that by seeing casually maybe thousands of people makes you an expert on all people who live there? Well in that case you cannot speak of people in the Caribbean as you did before then, as you have never been here.  And nor can anyone anywhere make a statement on anyplace that they have not lived?? I know many people living in the U.S who look to others outside of the U.S to explain what is happening there. Residing somewhere does not by itself mean one knows more about a particular place. If you would like to play that card you will certainly have to still back up your claims. Saying I am from there so I know is simply not enough.

Where is the evidence I requested to the wild claims you made in your earlier posts? That the pyramid texts and the Ayur-Veda’s claim that being slim is a preferred size for health and spiritual advancement? You have been skirting this. It is not enough to glibly say
 
That is an obvious cop out. We certainly seem to have differing opinions on what constitutes discipline and purity of mind and body. And I suspect you and our esteemed ancestors differ on that too. If you choose to use ancient African principles as evidence of the rightness of your claim that slim is better/ healthier than fat in some way then you must state where you got this from. Unless you provide that, especially for the many who are reading this reasoning very carefully, I can only assume that you were grasping at straws to build an argument. You assume much about what I have seen and what I know but again unless you provide some concrete evidence to your claims that African ancient concepts of diet and size conform to your views then I can see no validity in your argument. You made specific statements: BACK THEM UP.

As for your experience with your own weight, well you cannot at all assume that it is uniform. And as for this:

My answer is: YES!!! YES I HAVE! She can lift her foot over her head and do a full split and displays the greatest economy of motion of anyone I have ever seen.
These that I know of are not any ordinary women but ones whom many have the utmost respect, reverence and adoration for.  As a seeker of truth as you say you are, you would do well to regard these women, as they are the epitome of what we call WOMAN.

Your experiences do not make you an expert on all people, which is why it is vital that other sides of this reasoning must come forward.  It is vital that other women who may be seen as obese or fat or unhealthy know that this view of weight meaning ill health is not a universal truth and that they need to work out their body images and body health by being widely informed and without the brunt of negative discrimination. Ordinary people need to know that there are women who may look like them physically who are far beyond the females that may be revered by our wider society. They live by a standard far higher and far older.

The point in the picture, since you seem to have missed it, is that by western standards that woman is considered overweight and if I interpret some of your comments correctly she is obese by extension. But Obese is a medical definition and one that is not determined by casual observation, notwithstanding the fact that the medics are often wrong on this. But the point in the photo is that to others and maybe even the woman there, she is quite fine and fit. And if she is fine with her size, who are we to negatively discriminate against her?

You say: But I have shown that this is certainly not true for all fat people but may be the experiences of some who should see a doctor and get better advice on their health. However we cannot use this definition for all people who are fat.

You are absolutely wrong to assume that native Africans enjoyed good health because they were slim. They were healthy by their standards at the time and they had diets relative to their region and Yes Ancient Africans unlike what is portrayed in parts of Africa like Egypt had a wide array of sizes depending on their region they inhabited

Nowhere in any of my posts do I attempt to speak for all of African and even all Black people but I can speak from my varied personal experiences and research and the same way that one picture does not speak for all Africans, the slim image does not either.  That has been the point of my entire argument. There is no uniform size, weight, and judgment of health for all people, black white or otherwise. This is some thing that has to be determined by the person through examination, research, considering all views and becoming comfortable in their own bodies.  We must develop healthier lifestyles and that begins from inside and coming to an understanding of our divine purposes, not from a diet book or on a treadmill.

yan

Obesity vs. Size

The term obesity is a word thrown around to define anyone who does not fit the current stereotype of size. The media portrays proper size in an unrealistic picture constantly bombarding us with images that have very little to do with most people I come in contact with. In fact I have never seen anyone who fits the image of this perfect size.

While ones size seems predetermined genetically, it can fluctuate. One of the key factors is diet. It is easy to fall into the poor diet syndrome with the day-to-day demands, which distract us from one of the most important aspects of our existence. What we eat, when and how. The typical western diet is encouraged to be fast with no consideration for quality. In fact the additives used in fast food as well as that offered at the mainstream supermarkets contain hormones and additives which have been recognized to alter the ability to maintain size. This same low quality food rushed into the system has adverse affects emotionally as well. The additives can cause emotional stress as these are not naturally assimilated into the body and can toxically trigger negative emotional reactions. Often since eating is considered comfort it can be hard to recognize bad food as a culprit in a negative emotional state. So we eat more. Once we consider how what and when we eat we can reach the balance necessary to maintain our Self-size.

If we are struggling with this issue it is easy to fall prey to all the fads, which guarantee results. This is another one of those illusions, which I have yet to see work. I personally have seen and heard of many who bought the book and followed the plan and initially lost a bit of weight only to be more discouraged when the plan failed. Again it goes back to proper nutrition. And proper Self image. We can use height as a yardstick to see this a little clearer. If we are 4 feet tall as an adult are we going to spend all our excess time and resources trying to reach 6 foot?

So we have fat people and skinny people and all who fall somewhere in between. Obesity has a separate category. Obesity is over sized to the point of a life threatening condition. Obesity can be the extreme result from massive bad nutrition, however most examples I have seen are present from birth and are similar to other birth defects.

To equate size, as with any physical characteristics, with quality of character severely limits our ability to fully embrace Self. It also hinders us from being able to embrace others due to what we perceive as a flaw.

Yan,

A warrior spirit is my core being, it is my true essence. If it seems to you I'm debating in a warrior attitude, I apologize for this inconvenience. Debating in such manner is typical to me because my warrior core is the head of my intelligence. Actually however I am not fighting you. I am having a good time debating you, because it makes me THINK and allow me to know you better. I'm not seeking to influence Black women with this discussion, but only to inform them. Nowhere in this thread I have said we must conform to stupid books written, published and disturbed by treacherous and or murderers people. You also accuse me falsely and have the pretension to act like it's my own exclusivity. Fact, fit and obese people (100 lbs-300 lbs overweight) are very rare. Most obese people suffer form health problems there is no way around it. Moreover, your experience and opinion are certainly not the majority. And I'm not only talking about western cultural standards here but worldwide health concern. I'm not bashing Black sisters sizes by any means. I'm only concerned about their health and LONGEVITY in this world where we are the most victims of all kinds of genocides. Is it so hard for the protagonists of this thread to understand?

Bantu Kelani.

Some general comments

What people mean when they say 'overweight' will differ, and even doctors have problems defining obesity. They claim, "Obesity specifically refers to an excess amount of body fat. Some people, such as bodybuilders or other athletes with a lot of muscle, can be overweight without being obese." They further state, "Like most things, obesity is a complex phenomenon about which it is dangerous to generalize. What is true for one person is not necessarily true for the next." Measuring obesity requires some technical ability, and is not something that can be casually observed.

Many people do not like their own bodies, and I would suggest that they check their attitude and other habits before rushing to change. It is far too common that a person alters his or her body only to develop a stronger negative discriminatory attitude towards others who see no need to alter theirs.    
 
Good health cannot be simply measured by how long someone 'lives' (occupies a body), especially now that people can sustain their bodies for a long time with drugs and machines while being in a dysfunctional state. These medical advancements have up sides, but they do little to address the negative discriminatory conduct of most people.  
 
The concept of measuring good health by the length of the physical life of people is flawed as some people work much harder than others, and as such some people do put much more work on their bodies than others. A person can do more in 40 years than another in 100 years. People accomplish what they desire at different rates, and the stress to their bodies is relative to what they do and how they think, so measuring the quality of health by the length of 'life' is not correct in my view.  
 
Most of the views shared on this thread should be part of people's own psychological examination as they question altering their bodies. People may choose to alter their bodies for a whole host of reasons, and that is really their right.    
 
Often the need to lose weight can be tied to 'medical issues', and while many may have legitimate medical reasons to lose weight, the 'medical issues' line is often used as a cliché and an excuse to strive for their 'tainted' ideas of beauty.  
 
I watched one glaring example of this during Oprah's fitness craze where she felt she had to reduce her size to be cool. At that time during her shows she would encourage others to do like her, but with all her material resources and modifications to her eating habit she put back on the weight.    
 
Before she attempted to drop weight, I never found anything wrong with her body on a cosmetic level. I felt she had an ok enough size, but she obviously did not find so (for either cosmetic or health reasons) and who better than her to test it...she certainly had the resources. Who knows the countless females she made feel badly about their own bodies while she was advocating a slimmer figure? But as was proven it did not work for her.  
 
This matter of appropriate size is really up to how people feel about their bodies and health, and they can reasonably change it if they feel badly about their form.    
 
Over the generations as foods have been artificially modified, some people's bodies developed a tendency to fatten; this is not withstanding the modern habit of overeating to deal with depression and low self-esteem. This however is no easy thing to address as many people cannot afford to go to gyms, and many even if they can afford it would realize that maintaining a form against the natural inclinations of the body is expensive, and can become a lifelong work which also adds other dangers to one's health.    
 
The moral of the story is that people should really look at what is fueling the desire to alter their bodies. Are they satisfied with the medical or fitness experts or are they really having problems doing what they wish to do? Of course changing one's look for aesthetic reasons is no big thing and is a personal choice. But seeing that we are addressing things that affect most people, especially Black people, then how people view others based on their own choice to change is important.    
 
Is it that all who do not wish to alter their bodies should not get suitable jobs that they are qualified for, or should be refused access to goods and services because they do not see the need to alter their bodies which are not affecting them doing the tasks they wish to engage? Is it that we are to make others feel ugly or uncomfortable because they would like to participate and are ok with their own large bodies as it is?  
 
The issues surrounding overweight and obesity are about a lot more than exercising and simply eating less for most people. It involves the contaminated foods most people eat and the poor advice they get about their own health to begin with. It involves the stress most people undergo, and it generally involves people's low level of awareness about themselves (low self esteem).


This quote from Kristine is very important.

Ayinde, I really appreciate your thoughtful comments but the facts remains many sisters tend to overeat and say they never exercise. The health problems, which result from this are staggering! It's thus sounds imprudent to encourage Black women to see no problem in being 200 lbs + overweight when they tend to not exercice unlike the bodybuilders. Supporting the argument that those who care for their health and encourage others to do so is just finding an excuse to recharge their aesthetic concerns is to be in denial of the long-term affects of the numerous diseases that are commonly related to obesity. In my own view indeed obesity (200 lbs + not exercising) is a not a good thing. This is harming us far more than our White counterparts in addition of the harm of oppressive racism and human rights violations.

Bantu Kelani.

I do not buy the vague and somewhat biased definitions associated with Obesity, which in my view are not Universally sound.

People who care about the health of others are not running the whole Obesity campaign in the mainstream media. It is a part of a commercial enterprise that thrives on negatively stigmatizing people to get them to spend.

The same fat cats who are pushing the diets and fitness craze also invest in other companies that do tremendous harm to people.

Most of the promotions hinge around a White cosmetic model of beauty and fitness that is not attainable or suitable for everyone. The ads are to negatively stress people so they will rush out to spend. Many people do suffer negatively from putting on too much weight, and many do suffer for taking off too much weight. Self-esteem is the factor that regulates size and health.

However, the negative stigmas in relation to size are not true for many people and they only severely impact on fat people (by varied yardsticks for fatness) because of the silly prejudices of others. So the issue is also about the ignorance/prejudices of others.  

According to the fleeting interpretations of Obesity, Sumo wrestlers and many native Alaskans might show up on tests as Obese and unhealthy, but if the wrestler and the native Alaskan are quite healthy and comfortable with their size, who am I to impose a standard on them?

All people do not eat as badly as many may do in the US.  Not all fat people lack exercise, overeat or eat poor quality food, and certainly many of the fat people I know are quite fit and mentally sound. On the other hand, many people should look at the issues that may cause them to suddenly put on or take off weight. Quite often the underlying issues are related to self-worth.


I don't really know if this comment was directed to I or if it was a general comment. If it was directed to I then read my comments again. "…Supporting the argument that those who care for their health and encourage others…" You may be trying to personalize the discussion, but if not, I fail to see where I took issue with anyone who cares about the well-being of others. Certainly if I happen to disagree with you on anything it is a disagreement with  your view or how you express something, and it is not a sweeping indictment on everyone else. A good intention does not in itself mean that what someone is saying is true. I also do not believe that many people, including fitness gurus and doctors, really care about the health of others, and especially the health of Black people. I also do not see how encouraging false stereotyping and negative discrimination is part of the cure for anything.

Other than that, I do not have a problem with anyone getting fatter of thinner if they wish.

The physical attributes of people are not true measurements of their character or ability to learn anything, which includes developing spiritually. People's discomfort with their own bodies, and with the rights of others to be different, can be a hindrance to their own development.

If people are uncomfortable with their weight or feel they are at risk for some diseases then there are things they can start doing about it. They should get as informed as possible (which includes consulting doctors) and act on it as they see fit.

However, many people have prejudicial issues with how they look, and they project them on others. They should work on their own biases. I am not here advocating one size for everyone and those who are unfit irrespective of their size should work on it.

Ayinde,

Regardless of what you say, in industrialized countries Black women have significant health problem due to obesity. For the most part because they do not exercise enough and or overeat. Black women are two to three times more likely than White women to be obese. Black women are two to three times less likely to find treatment and prevention of the harmful effects of obesity. This epidemic will not prolong our lives it will cut life short. Why should we reduce our life span purposely when our fore mothers and fore fathers lived more than 170 years? Furthermore, if I don't like morbid obesity I must be biased in my belief? Fine, you and others can make your excuses. Sorry, I won't be doing that. I went 10 years being obese I have suffered many pains, so I'm not going to encourage people to comply with obesity for political correctness and this whole "It's okay to be yourself" theory.

Bantu Kelani.

Kelani, could you elaborate a lil bit on the pains you suffered through the ten years you said you were obese. I think that this is important.

The Right Order: In my view

The first thing people should be addressing before trying to change anything is the prejudices and negative stigmatizations related to their own self-esteem problems. This involves examining the racial issues and untrue stereotypings associated with the particular issue. This is to first correct perceptions before they end up removing 40lbs from their bodies while gaining more pounds on their egos, which is certainly more dangerous.

From the moment people feel they are overweight, quite often they are not in immediate life and death danger, and can afford to investigate the issues thoroughly. Most often, people who feel badly about their bodies do have to develop a positive self-image before they can be sufficiently motivated to do something about it. This is true for most people, and I rather suspect this was also true for Kelani. So improving the self-image usually comes first.

No one is going to get a better self-image if the information they receive is in reality misinformation. They certainly will not be motivated to improve if all they see and feel is the negative stigmatizations from others. They do need to see and feel better through the intervention of others who can identify with the good in them. We all should know that people's own misinformed views about themselves, and by extension others are directly related to the negative stigmas placed on others, and their own bodies.

We encourage Blacks to examine the issues surrounding Racism and Gender discrimination before rushing to bleach their skin. We encourage them to examine Colorism so they don't remain only considering people of lighter shades attractive or better based on the miseducation they received. Today I am encouraging people to examine the many biases about size before continuing to feel badly about their own bodies, and to ensure that if they choose to change, it is either because of legitimate health concerns or because it is in their own best interest.

My approach towards this size issue is totally consistent with how I address many issues that are loaded with prejudices and general misinformation. We certainly do not expect Blacks to change for the better by feeding them more misinformed views about Blacks. We do expect them to get informed (not misinformed) first.

I am not encouraging anyone to put on or take off weight, but I am encouraging people who are not in immediate life and death danger to consider the prejudices involved in the size issue before castigating or negatively stereotyping others.