Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

Why Whites Think Blacks Have No Problems
By Tim Wise

Just a few years ago, a public opinion poll indicated that only 6 percent of whites in the U.S. believed racism was still a "very serious" problem facing African Americans. While larger percentages believed racism to be somewhat of a problem, only this anemic share of the white community saw it as an issue of great importance.

When you consider that twice that number – or as many as 12 percent – have told pollsters they believe Elvis Presley is still alive, it becomes apparent that delusion has taken on a whole new meaning among the dominant racial majority. Apparently, it is easier for whites to believe that a pill-popping, washed-up lounge singer faked his own death and is playing midnight gigs at some tropical resort, than to believe what black folks say they experience every day.

It makes me think that if ignorance is indeed bliss, then my fellow whites must be among the happiest folks on the planet.

So it was no surprise to read that once again a poll has been released, indicating that whites by and large don't think racial discrimination remains a big problem, and that whites and blacks continue to view issues of racial equality far differently.

According to the recent Gallup Survey on "Black-White Relations," seven out of ten whites believe that blacks are treated equally in their communities: an optimism with which only 40 percent of blacks agree. Eight in ten whites say blacks receive equal educational opportunities, and 83 percent say blacks receive equal housing opportunities in their communities. Only a third of whites believe blacks face racial bias from police in their areas.

Despite the fact that half of all blacks say they have experienced discrimination in the past 30 days, whites persist in believing that we know their realities better than they do, and that black complaints of racism are the rantings of oversensitive racial hypochondriacs. Blacks, we seem to believe, make mountains out of molehills, for Lord knows we would never make a molehill out of a mountain!

That white perceptions of the extent of racial bias are rooted in a stupendous miasma of ignorance is made clear by a number of salient facts. First, as will be shown below, there is the statistical evidence indicating that equal opportunity is the stuff of fiction, not documentary; and secondly, the simple truth that white perceptions of racism's salience have always been splendidly naive. Indeed, as far back as 1963, before there was a Civil Rights Act to outlaw even the most blatant racial discrimination, 60 percent of whites said that blacks were treated equally in their communities. In 1962, only 8 years after the Brown decision outlawed segregation in the nation's schools (but well before schools had actually moved to integrate their classrooms), a stunning 84 percent of whites were convinced that blacks had equal educational opportunity. In other words, white denial of the racism problem is nothing new: it was firmly entrenched even when this nation operated under a formal system of apartheid.

Of course, this ignorance of the lived realities of black people is no surprise. Rather it is in large part the result of our isolation from African Americans in daily life.

More than 80 percent of whites live in virtually all-white neighborhoods, and nearly nine in ten white suburbanites live in communities with less than 1 percent black populations. What's more, only 12 percent of whites in law school today – who by historical standards have had more opportunity to mix with people of color than any generation before them – say they had significant interaction with blacks while growing up.

One can only expect this degree of isolation to lead to a skewed perception of what other people experience. After all, if one doesn't know many blacks, or personally witness discrimination, it is all the more likely that one will find the notion of widespread mistreatment hard to digest. Especially when one has been socialized to give more credence to what members of one's own group say, than what the racial "other" tells us is true.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that every time a black person says they have been discriminated against that they are, in fact, correct. Individuals, after all, can misperceive certain situations. But the reality of individual misperception should not lead to the widespread white belief in mass black delusion, which is virtually the only way one can read the Gallup figures.

For so many whites to believe that blacks have equal opportunity, is not only to discount a few claims of discrimination that may be without merit: rather, it is to reject the broad swath of claims that virtually every African American can bring forth from their personal mental rolodex. Fact is, if even one-tenth of the black claims of discrimination were accurate, this would translate into well over 1.75 million instances of anti-black racial bias every single month, based on survey data. Unfortunately, it is doubtful the numbers are this small.

Though the Gallup survey didn't address racial discrimination in the labor market, there is little question that when whites say blacks are treated equally, they are also assuming this to be true for the world of work. But what is the reality? According to a recent study by the Russell Sage Foundation, even though blacks search for work longer and often more aggressively than whites, they are between 36-44 percent less likely to be hired for jobs in mostly white suburbs, even when their experience and qualifications are equal to their white counterparts. White males with a high school diploma are just as likely to have a job, and tend to earn just as much as black males with college degrees, and on average, even when age, experience, education and other relevant factors are considered, blacks average at least 10 percent less pay than similar whites.

As for education, the picture is much the same. Although formal segregation is illegal, de facto segregation remains a reality thanks to "ability tracking," which has less to do with actual ability, and more to do with racial and class bias against children of color and those from low-income families. Beginning as early as kindergarten, teachers and counselors separate students based on so-called cognitive skill levels, despite evidence that the tests used to determine these skill levels are inaccurate predictors of ability and terribly biased against students from non-dominant cultural backgrounds.

Even when black students show potential that is equal to or above that of whites, they are 40 percent less likely to be placed in advanced or accelerated classes, according to the head of the College Board. Despite evidence of ability, blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be placed in remedial or low-track classes, where they will typically be taught by the least qualified teachers, be given less challenging material to learn, and receive on average nearly 40 hours less actual instruction annually.

So too is educational inequity fostered by unequal discipline, meted out in a racially disparate manner. Even though black and white rates of school rule infractions are roughly equal, black students are twice as likely as whites to be suspended or expelled. Blacks are half of all students suspended or expelled for weapons violations, even though self-report surveys indicate whites are just as likely to bring weapons to school, and white males are actually twice as likely as black males to do so. Since blacks are more likely to be suspected – thanks to common stereotypes about violence and delinquency – they are the ones who get searched and caught, but this hardly means they break the rules more often.

According to studies by the Applied Research Center, the disproportionate rate of black suspensions is the result of greater punishment given for subjective infractions like "defying authority," or "attitude problems," both of which are perceived as more threatening when coming from black students than whites.

As for housing, white confidence in equal opportunity makes for nice wishful thinking, but hardly comports with reality. Virtually every study on housing bias in rental and mortgage markets for the past three decades has found evidence of substantial ongoing discrimination. According to the Department of Housing and Urban Development, there may be as many as 2 million instances of racial housing bias each year, and as many as half of all blacks may face discrimination when trying to rent an apartment or purchase a home.

According to the Boston Federal Reserve Bank, blacks are 56 percent more likely than whites to be rejected for a mortgage loan, even after controlling for 38 factors that could explain higher rejection rates for blacks – including issues of credit history, collateral, and income. Nationwide, mortgage loan rejection rates for the highest income group of blacks is roughly the same as the rejection rates for the lowest income whites.

Finally, white protestations that blacks receive equal treatment from police in their communities, is nothing short of laughable. A look at police prosecution of the war on drugs alone gives the lie to white claims of equal law enforcement. Though blacks are only 14 percent of illegal drug users, they are 35 percent of those arrested for possession. In many communities, including some of the ones where whites claim there is no bias in policing, blacks face arrest rates for drugs that are five, ten, even twenty times higher than the rates for whites, despite roughly equal rates of drug usage.

Though a slim majority of whites admit that racial profiling – one clear example of unequal treatment – does happen, apparently few believe it happens where they live. Yet in state after state, studies have found a disproportionate rate of highway and surface street stops of vehicles driven by blacks, and searches of cars driven by blacks, above and beyond the rates of black traffic infractions, which otherwise might create reasonable cause.

In New York City, from 1997-1998, the NYPD's Street Crimes Unit stopped and frisked 135,000 people: 85 percent of whom were people of color. Only 4500 persons were ultimately arrested and prosecuted, meaning that over 95 percent of those harassed were innocent. Interestingly, whites who were stopped were significantly more likely to be found with drugs or other contraband, indicating that not only was this policy of racial stops and searches a biased one, but it failed the test as valid crime control on its own merits as well.

Of course, I hardly expect the facts to matter much, as an awful lot of white folks seem impervious to them. When it comes to racial realities, the levels of ignorance are so ingrained as to be almost laughable. Perhaps that's why 12 percent of whites actually say blacks are a majority of the nation's population, and why most whites believe blacks are a third of the nation's population, instead of the thirteen percent they actually represent. We seem to see black people everywhere, and apparently we see them doing quite well.

Apparently, we even see them as our buddies. 75 percent of whites in one recent poll indicated that they had multiple close black friends. Sounds great, until you realize that 75 percent of white Americans represents about 145 million people. 145 million who say they have multiple black friends, despite the fact that there are only 35 million black people to go around.

Which means one of two things: either whites are clueless about black people, friendships, or both; or black folks are mighty damned busy, running from white house to white house to white house, being our friends. In which case, we can put away all that nonsense about blacks "taking our jobs." After all, how could blacks have time to work at all, what with all the backyard barbecues they're attending at the houses of their white pals? Hell, maybe Elvis will even invite them all to Graceland when he makes his triumphant return to Memphis.

Tim Wise is a Nashville-based writer, lecturer and antiracism activist.

"Of course, this ignorance of the lived realities of black people is no surprise. Rather it is in large part the result of our isolation from African Americans in daily life.  

More than 80 percent of whites live in virtually all-white neighborhoods, and nearly nine in ten white suburbanites live in communities with less than 1 percent black populations. What's more, only 12 percent of whites in law school today – who by historical standards have had more opportunity to mix with people of color than any generation before them – say they had significant interaction with blacks while growing up.  

One can only expect this degree of isolation to lead to a skewed perception of what other people experience. After all, if one doesn't know many blacks, or personally witness discrimination, it is all the more likely that one will find the notion of widespread mistreatment hard to digest. Especially when one has been socialized to give more credence to what members of one's own group say, than what the racial "other" tells us is true."

This quote right here hits the nail on the head in my opinion of why so many white people are ignorant to the reality of racism still living today.
I over-heard a conversation the other day (in Oakland Ca) where a white wombman said to another white wombman as they passed a group of black men being put into police cars in handcuffs, "It's so sad to see all these white cops throwing these black men in their police cars everyday. It's just not right." The next wombman replies to her, "Well, if you commit crimes, that's what happens, no matter your color." And the first wombman replies to her, "Well, if you have to commit crimes to keep up with society, due to your color, then the real problem points right back to the cops throwing these men into their cars. If black people had equal opportunity as whites then there would be no need for black people to steal what they had money to buy.."
Yes, many white people are ignorant to the racial issue that is still alive due to their lack of seeing and experiencing. The tel-lie-vision can have a huge affect on what white people are seeing as their world-view reality. And lack of experience makes room for plenty misconceptions and assumptions. Give thanks for this article, statistics can always paint a clearer picture.
Blessed

This guy is really funny.  It's a shame it's funny in a satirical way, highlighting the pitiful state of our "culture" here in the US.

I just wanted to comment on a few points that struck me the most:



I could have told you this long ago, and I'm pretty certain it is older white people that make such statements, people like my mother (white, 53).  They saw things at a time when we know it was much more overt and comparatively it doesn't seem as though there is any problem now, especially in tame suburban areas of the south, like where we live outside Orlando.  Blacks and whites mix relatively well, with the exception of the extreme racists from both sides - the white boys donning confederate flags and the blacks with tear drop tattoos on their eyes (I'm stereotyping both sides a bit here, but you catch my drift).  The fact is, simply, that the racism is just as wide-spread, but there are token achievements that the people hold up to show the supposed progress.  Reality shows, however, that it is a minority of whites mixing with a portion of the black community and an even smaller minority of blacks mixing with the whites - and these blacks are called "uncle Toms" by most every black I've known...Malcolm X introduced me to the phenomenon of it all in his autobiography - I'd actually never really noticed the length some blacks went to just to be "accepted" by their white neighbors.  Living in an upper middle class white neighborhood, there is a house or two on every street of such families.  Their children talk, act, dress, and grow up with whites.  It seems like a cultural eraser.  I'd be interested to see the opinions of some of you on this topic.



These same morons are probably the ones that think we never went to the moon.  I'm shocked every time I realize just how many truly stupid people there are on this planet.  Nonetheless, that is a frightening statistic.   :o



I don't know what planet these white people live on.  The educational issue is pretty obvious!  The funding that inner city schools receive is often inferior; the teachers they receive are usually inferior...they get the "left-overs" of everything.  I suppose some governmental official or school board representative could stand up and deny this all and quote some kind of fabricated statistics, but we all know it is true.  
The housing opportunity issue again is not true because of the exclusionary aspect of it all.
And from experience, having been in jail twice, AND HEARD STORIES FROM SOME IN THERE - I can tell you the police situation is horrendous.  Worse than I ever dreamed.  When in a Daytona Beach jail one black told me about how he and his brother we're partying at spring break, smoking herb and drinking, but not driving or anything and they had a car load of girls with them...the whole nine.  They got arrested.  Big deal you say?  Well, let me fill in the background:  car loads of white kids doing the same thing that were not arrested.  To top it off, the cop smashed the kid's expensive camcorder on the street for no good reason at all.



This is another stat I could have told you, but I think it's probably too high as it is!  I'd insert a decimal in between the 12 and make it 1.2 if we're aiming for accuracy.  The rich "law-school" type white kids in high school won't even mix with other white kids unless they are rich, pretty, and popular.  And while they claim they are not racist, they definitely walk around the entire school with an aire of superiority over everyone...

Is improvement coming?  NO.  I've seen the generation following behind mine (I'm 23) and they're regressing if anything.  There's probably just as many or more white kids trying to be non-racists by attempting to be black, but the racial issues haven't been erased by their absurd behavior and the problem persists among those that need the attitude adjustment.

I don't really harbor any hope for racial relations to improve to be horribly honest.  It's been going on since the dawn of mankind - even within races prejudice against subtypes (i.e., the Egyptians belief that the pygmies were demons, Chinese and Japanese detest one another, etc), and it will probably continue until the earth is populated by "the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their decendants with them." (Isaiah 65:23, partial).  I know some on this site take arms with the "waiting" attitude, but that's not really what I am issuing as the solution.  I'm merely saying that to expect a miraculous panacea to this problem is unrealistic; mankind's history gives us 6,000 years of reasons why.

"the Egyptians belief that the pygmies were demons"

Where did you get this info? As far as my info shows the Twa people/(pygmy is a derrogatorry term for them) were reviered by the ancient KMTic people/Egyptians. Bes being an example of their semi-diafication. I also thought that the Twa people were who they say they got their spiritual teachings from...

But anyhow. Racism won't dissappear. But we as a unified African people can make it moot and irrelavant. There is a unified and organized China so any systematic racism that is perpetrated towards an organized Chinese people is irrelavant. We need a strong unified and organized homeland, or we will have no strength. Micro-nationalism(identifying with the colonial borders that seperat eus ie. "I'm a Jamaican, American, Nigerian, Panamanian, Congolese, Ect.") is killing us. We need to realize we are all African and we need to organize our masses for the betterment of all of us.

About the Twa, I heard it on some documentary.  It doesn't surprise me that there are multiple opinions/views by the "experts" because it seems to me a lot of archeological topics are like that since they are deducing things based on ancient evidence.  And due to the fact that they did call them pygmies, it was probably a white archeologist.  I didn't know that was a derrogatory term.  In any light, the fact that there were differences within the race led to a view of separation, be it + or -; the point remains that they didn't view the other group just as ordinary mortals...or as equals, for that matter.

As far as what you are saying about the unification of the African people - don't be mistaken I'm of Cherokee & Polish blood, not Afrikan.  Irrelevant.  INI do know that in this world the righteous have no boundaries and those that are truly righteous people see past the color issue.  Our kingdom hall is a beautiful mix of many races and is one of the few places I can go and say without reserve that there is no racism, even hidden.  JAH has made it so.  Outside of such spiritual paradises, the "real world" exists, the one that we know can never unite itself because it is owned and operated by the wicked ones (1 Jn 5:19, 2 Cor 4:4).

The fact that racism persists attests to how much of humanity is tainted.  At the risk of sounding MLK-ish, it will be nice when the day comes (Is 2:4) - and it will at the hand of JAH Almighty - when we look upon people just as people.  The reason I make that statement - again - as i said earlier, is not to allay the solution, but because I do truly and firmly believe within my heart that JAH has set a date for that to come (Dan 2:44).  He hasn't proved false to a single promise all throughout time (Titus 1:2) and his eyes have been on the sufferings of all people that have been victims of cruel Babylon which shall soon be hurled down and destroyed (Rev 18:21-24) and Jah's people and prophets shall suffer no more...

[Post Script: Oshun_Auset, I don't know if you're a Bible reading man, and if not I respect that, but I often use scriptures when I talk about my beliefs as you see.  I think I remember seeing in another thread that you do not like the Bible because of the way it's been misused by Babylon the Great - the world empire of false religion as we label it.  And of course I understand that.  I was repulsed by the book, too, until I found I could follow it without being associated with the people that were to blame for all the atrocities committed in the name of so-called "christianity."]

I understand your use of the Bible...It does have many "useful" sayings. One of my favorites is..."They will come in my name, but they are not of me" Revalations(something:something)... ;D

You were correct in remembering that I don't adhere to the Bible as being the "word of God"(but I have studied and read it)...but it wasn't just because of the way it has been used to oppress and subjugate others in the name of Christiandom(the political state, not actual Christianity)...but more because I have studied the pre-existing texts that most of the Helio Biblio(Sun Book) got it's teachings from...and I prefer to stick to the originals.

But the only other correction I have is that I am a wombman. :-[ Oshun is a female Yoruba/Ifa Orisha and Auset(Isis) is the KMTic female Neteru....hence my name dispays my sex...but I appreciate your post.

One question...Since you are part Cherokee, do you incorporate any of the Cherokee traditional spiritual teachings and practices into your life?

Out_of_Zion:

Ha!!!! Do u live dwell inside everyone's brain at the kingdom hall and keep track of their intentions and thoughts. If not, YOU CAN NEVER SAY "WITHOUT RESERVE THAT THERE IS NO RACISM" IN the KINGDOM HALL.

Do your people (at the kingdom hall) advocate the need for reparations?

Do they expose the racism, gender discrimination, and false values of society in a meaninful way?

Do they acknowledge the past and present arrogance and brutality of Whites and Christianity?

Do they speak out against the Global Order of White Supremacy?

Oshun_Auset, appologies for the mistake in gender - I'll attribute it 50% to nomenclature ignorance and 50% to the anonymity of the internet.  I've already been called female on this site by a brother, despite the fact I am male.  I think sometimes all of us subconsciously gender stereotype.  What I mean by this is that you speak very authoritatively (as does Bantu) for a female and we're used to only males doing that in the visual world - a societally imposed thing, of course.  Similarly, I speak rather gently for a male (something I admit freely) both on the internet and in person and people assume that the softness is female.  So be it, I guess, right?

As for the Cherokee rituals, I'm 2 generations removed and my mother was raised Catholic since my grandfather exercised headship in their household.  My grandmother then became more of a Catholic than he to put it quite accurately, so all traces of ancestral practices were lost in the anglosizing of my family...I've read some of the beliefs and stories of the Cherokee people, but do not incorporate it into my spiritual practices.  Simply, I read scripture, pray, and meditate on Jah's power and love towards us.  Detached somewhat from my blood, yes - but it's brought me spiritual peace and within my Christian beliefs I do believe I will get to meet my ancestors one-by-one as they are resurrected (Acts 24:15, et al.).
----
Tyehimba, do not act as though you've exposed me simply because I make a general statement about the peace within our hall.  I don't feel the need to respond to the sarcasm of your questioning as to whether I enter the minds of all of the 142 people that are part of my congregation when we know INI live in one mind.  But I will answer your true questions.

 

I have no idea what the general stance is on this.  I could ask someone that may know or do some research if you wish me to find out.  I doubt that they've taken a stance on this as it is a very controversial subject and as Jehovah's WItnesses we endeavor to be no part of the world's affairs, politically, just as Jesus commanded his disciples in John 17:16, saying, "Just as I am no part of this world, they (true Christians) too, are no part of this world."  By avoiding political involvement this is accomplished.  As for highlighting the injustices of slavery:  Yes, that has been done, as have many other brutalities that have occured in the name of greed and dominance.  Solomon said that "man has dominated man to his injury" in Ecclesiastes.  Is that not true?



Yes.  I don't know if you've had the opportunity to read either a Watchtower or Awake magazine before, but the writers have dealt with a lot of sociological problems that plague not just western society but the world in general.  If you'd like me to direct you to such examples, I'll look in the index for you.  Moreover, in a "district" (as they divide us) that is predominately white (probably 70%) we have a black circuit overseer and a black district overseer.  That is to say our area is majority white and run by two blacks.  You know how often I've heard it mentioned?  I can count it on zero fingers.  But I'm telling you here.



Absolutely.  In fact, in our book entitled "Knowledge that Leads to Everlasting Life" there is an entire chapter that deals exclusively with that topic.  It's also been the topic of many articles throughout the 130 years of literature publication by Jehovah's Witnesses, specifically the horrors committed by the Catholic church, including but not limited to WWII and the endorsement of the Nazi holocaust.  But you misphrase that quite incorrectly, because we attribute it accurately to CHRISTENDOM, which is the false religion spurned from CHRISTIANITY, the true practice of following Christ Jesus, which has never killed anyone since Jesus said "he who takes the sword shall perish by it."  



Yes.  We call it, much like many on this site, "Babylon the Great."  Babylon the Great encompasses all of Christendom and the Anglo-American power of Great Britain and the US, which you will find in our Revelation Climax! book referred to as the "7th beast" of Daniel.  The Global Order, or UN, is the "8th beast which springs forth from the seven" and "reigns for but one hour."  Not only has this been spoken out against, but it's been spoken out against for roughly 44 years straight.  Perhaps no one's noticed because it hasn't been sung on the radio in songs...Bob Marley got a great message out.  It's just a shame the world's not acting on it.  We, too, promote all the things that JAH requires of mankind, the simple ways in which to live peacefully and righteously - and sans flash and appeal - it, too, is ignored.

FINALLY:  Are we the solution to the world's problems?  No.  Jehovah's kingdom is - Daniel 2:44 - and it's coming to "crush and put and end TO ALL THESE KINGDOMS."  

So what we can't accomplish - changing men - JAH can, not by changing them, but by removing them!

 My statement about u dwelling in everyone's head, which isn't possible was to match your equally impossible statement statement that no racism exists in your kingdoom hall even hidden. The many posts on the subject of racism on this forum have exposed the nature of racism.

One of the greatest illusions and myths is the notion that the solution to racism is being colorblind. This notion is racist in it self because it ignored the fact that Whites have automatic privilege where they go and Black have to face the correlative discrimination. Such 'one love', 'rainbow people', 'we are all one' and colorblind theories are disingenuous and represent real blindness as it is ignorant of the fact that race in itself is not the problem(does not cause racism) but rather ignorance. Thus, since people being of different races is not the real problem, then being colorblind won't solve racism, which is a manifestation of conditioned ignorance. People coming to terms with their own role in the global system of racism, gender discrimination, injustice and inequality, will be an important step in overcoming a lot of such societal ills. It is vastly erroneous to think that the ideals of peace, love, unity and equality could ever exist in the absence of truth and justice, which can only come as a result of reasoning through certain critical issues.



So you doubt that there is a stance on reparations because it is a 'contoversial' issue and you endeavor to be no part of the world's affairs??Yet you state that they expose racism, gender discrimination and the false values of society in a meaninful. Your 'meaningful and my meaningful is very different but even so aren't these issues 'controversial' and 'of the world's affairs'??

It should be noted here that racism and other ignorance is alive and well and because the form has changed to a more subtle covert form, it doesn't mean that it has gone. The social conditioning has been so deep that even information about racism is not enough, as there is a pyschological dimension to it. It is impossible to talk away 500 years of conditioning and ignorance.

In addition, it must be realized that good intentions are just not enough, and does not negate ignorance or injustice in society.

Many white archaologosts like to conform findings to their unconscious white supremacist world view. Some have gone so far as to group the Ituri Forest Mbuti (pygmies) as caucasians! I guess anything good they find they like to ascribe to the white race.

Out of Zion (OOZ) rationalizations are part of the problem. Notice his technique or strategy of admitting white racism, but attempting to NORMALIZE the behavior by juxtaposing it often with black racism or black racist. This article was about WHITE RACISM, yet, OOZ has found the need to interject black racist and racism, as well as, the ideology that racism is simply a HUMAN propensity that will always exists.

I suspect the rationalization of this rhetoric is that of coming to the defense of whiteness. OOZ seems to feel the need to protect the whites from an image of moral inferiority as evidenced by their racist history against others. Thus, he felt the need to BALANCE the original article whose context was WHITE RACISM and its effects upon blacks, with claims about black racism and the racist nature intrinsic to humanity.

I do not think it is fait to call black people in America racist in a morally equivalent tone to that of white racist. Every action creates and opposite reaction and thus black are simply reacting to a 300 year history of racial abuse to our ancestors and selves. One should expect that LOVE and ADMIRATION are not the natural human reaction that is born from being oppressed. The truth is that we never did anything to whites to instigate and precipitate their reaction of hate and oppression upon us. I see the juxtaposition as being akin to a person who is assaulted in an unprovoked violent attack, using violence to defend him or herself. Even though they both are guilty of violence, there is a distinction and difference morally, in their use of violence.

In a nutshell, the reality is that there are 6 white folks for every 1 black person in America. Thus, if only 16% of whites were racist who discriminates when given the opportunity to do it and get away with it, that Is one racist white for every single black man, women or child in the nation. Even if only 8% of whites were racist, that is theoretically enough whites to map to half the black population. However, racism is not a one-to-one phenomenon, rather, it is a one-to-many phenomenon. This means that a racist white person will not limit his discrimination to a single black individual in his lifetime, but rather, will discriminate against multiple blacks in his lifetime.

Thus, you have whites via racism, applying a force against blacks that keeps them from reaching equality. However, without an equal and opposite force that pushes blacks toward equality, the effect of the force of white racism is preserved. As Newton laws says that any object that is in a state of equilibrium that is removed from that state of equilibrium by a force, it will thus require an equal and opposite force to restore the object to equilibrium.

The majority of whites today are not willing to provide the OPPOSITE FORCE to offset the effects of white racism, which thus preserves the effects of white racism, which is akin to being racist. Most whites are opponents to forces that are opposite because those forces threaten white privilege. Whites can and do rationalize that it is unacceptable for whites to be burdened with discrimination against them to offset past and present discrimination against blacks. Yet, they can and do accept that blacks can live with the burden of white racism, without any offset. That rationalization, in and off itself, is evidence of racism because it places a premium on the value of white lives over blacks. Whites should not be burdened unfairly, but it is ok for blacks to be burdened unfairly. How about an equality of unfairness and burden, if not an equality of fairness?

"Noah,"



Not at all is this true.  Did you read my original post?  The only references I made to humanity at large being racist were parenthetical and became the topic of later discussion and I confirmed the assertions of the article with things I had seen in my growing up years.  I'm fully aware of these things you mention and don't deny it in any way shape or form, so I fail to see your need to stir controversy on the matter.

MOREOVER => the issue I brought up of blacks being racist was of blacks being racists against other blacks, not whites.  And it'd be equally blind for you to say this doesn't exist.

But I do stand by my stance that racism is an irreperable  part of humanity in this far-from-perfect state that it dwells in.  And I also stand by my statement that it is a problem man cannot correct and that the only solution will come at the hand of El Shaddai Jehovah God.

So - if your aim is to stir petty conflict - seek elsewhere, "a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all..." (2 Tim 2:24)

Tyhimba,



Yes - but notice a distinct difference in the handling of the two matters.  To call an injustice wrong is to call a spade a spade; we're merely reporting the news accurately since the media and history books refuse to do so.  To take a stance on a political action, i.e. reparations, is to involve ourselves in worldly affairs where we told to have no role.  There's a fine line between the two, though, so your question is very valid and important.  I personally can hold the opinion that abortion is wrong, but that doesn't mean I should go out and picket it or even do obnoxious acts like take the lives of abortion doctors.  Rather, I'm told by JAH, "vengeance is mine, and retribution."  (Duet 32:35)  We have the utmost confidence that final solution to these injustices, reparation included, will be Jehovah's kingdom...

"Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth...
Happy are the peaceable since they will be sons of God."
-Matthew 5:5,9

This privledge, to the obedient meek ones who have suffered, will be better than any meager handout that could come at the hands of the governmental white man that controls Babylon anyway, no?  The reward, for the faithful, is eternal, unlike some lump sum of money which can only get material goods which "moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal," but rather would be a "treasure in heaven (the Kingdom of JAH), where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal." (Matthew 6:19)

Black being racist against other blacks may simply be a symptom of the effects of white racism, which thus makes it a MOOT point because of its redundancy, since we were already discussing white racism.

I do not believe that racism is not reconcilable. There is a cycle of actions and reaction that can easily be broken and promote racial harmony and healing. What it requires is that whites attempt to redistribute wealth and opportunity that was taken from other via 400 years of imperialism, slavery, colonization and exploitation of non-white peoples.  At that point, there will be positive reactions from non-whites towards whites as opposed to negative reaction and forgiveness can manifest without the being burdened with the curse and legacy of inequality born from white crimes against humanity.

What whites want Is a solution that allows them to maintain hegemony of wealth, power and rank and any such solution that threatens this is seen as not viable by whites. I mean, what would have been the point of taking all these things over the last 400 years if you are going to just turn around and redistribute wealth back? Whites of today do not have to be evil as whites of the past were because the goal has been achieved. Thus, whites feel good about themselves, in comparison to the past, because they are not enslaving or colonizing people. The goal of contemporary whites is much different. It is simply to maintain and hold onto the status and wealth gained from the past evil of their forefathers and nations.

Every damn thing that comes out in the guise of liberty, equality, fraternity has had this agenda cloaked. Give thanks for exposing it.

Noah,

while I agree 100% with your solution and what you are saying - I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine it occuring and for the very reason you provided.  To believe that the upper class whites would relinguish their privledge is a naive hope; they lord their wealth over blacks and whites alike and believe themselves superior in all respects (see the comments I made in my first post about the 12% of law students that claimed to have black friends).

But the problem is not isolated towards only blacks.  The Native American tribes have had their land stolen and been given little plots properly titled "reservations" because that's all they are - little reserves to represent a land that was once entirely populated by these people.  

A global form of socialism would be the solution to all of this, but I don't believe that it is within man's ability to achieve this.  There is far too much avarice & greed.

Out of Zion, You said....

Yes - but notice a distinct difference in the handling of the two matters.  To call an injustice wrong is to call a spade a spade; we're merely reporting the news accurately since the media and history books refuse to do so.  To take a stance on a political action, i.e. reparations, is to involve ourselves in worldly affairs where we told to have no role.  There's a fine line between the two, though, so your question is very valid and important.  I personally can hold the opinion that abortion is wrong, but that doesn't mean I should go out and picket it or even do obnoxious acts like take the lives of abortion doctors.  Rather, I'm told by JAH, "vengeance is mine, and retribution."  (Duet 32:35)  We have the utmost confidence that final solution to these injustices, reparation included, will be Jehovah's kingdom...

This is a major contradiction. Are you saying the slaves who had to fight against their oppressed condition were violating Yeshua's teaching by "being of the world? What about Yeshua himself turning over the tables in the temples? What about his battle against Imperial Rome? Wasn't that the main reason he was crucified? What about the Abolitionist Christians during slavery, were they "being of the world" for fighting against injustice? What about the civil rights movement? Don't tell me if Martin Luther King was a Jehova's witness they would  have taught him to "not get involved"? If we all just laid down and waited for the "kingdom of God"...wouldn't evil take over? Wear would African people be right now...Still colonized and enslaved waiting for God's return? Isn't non-action actually "letting" evil win? It sounds like "kingdom hall" might be a retreat from reality into illusion...I'm not trying to be flippant but this statement of yours really disturbs me for obvious reasons... I tend to agree with the following quote when people are afraid to take a moral stance and act upon it, and subsuquebtly use their religion as an excuse...

Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich. -Napolean

Don't let him be correct...Remember if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

By the way the anglo-cising of your parents isn't really a valid reason not to get into your Cherokee spirituality and heritage. My parents were both Christian, I practice Ifa from the Yoruba people...I researched my background...anyone can do that. How long have Africans been trapped in the West with very few cultural/religious ties to Africa taught to them? You don't have to have it passed down to you...You can go seek out your roots on your own....How do you think the plethora of information even exists on thiis board? We can't just go with what is spoon fed to us, especially by our oppressor, But you only can do that if you are willing...  

From your keyboard to Olorun's/God's ears!!!

Martin Luther King couldn't have been a witness, not for that reason, but because he would have been disfellowshipped for his undying love of fornication.  He may have loved to teach about brotherhood, unity, and respect, but he continued that loving with all kinds of women right into the bedroom.  

You are right though about that.  Dante said something similar, "All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing."  You referred to Yeshua overturning the temple tables - but he was fighting religious hypocrisy.  Similarly, we've overturned the tables of Christendom many times figuratively and received similar hate, but the statement that Yeshua made about "being no part of the world" refers to political involvements.  

As to how slavery would have been abolished without involvement, without war: I don't know.  This world is so damn wicked I sometimes can't even begin to rationalize and tred through these things because they don't make any sense to me.  I honestly find it hard to believe that some things I read about actually happened, slavery, the holocaust, even the two world wars.  And yet I've now lived through a few things, the Gulf War, 911, etc.  It's all just more proof that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" (1 Jn 5:19).  

I don't know where to draw the line between becoming obsessive about reforming a wicked system that exists and being patient and "showing a waiting attitude for the God of [our] salvation" (Micah 7:7, partial).  I really don't.  This is a topic I've brought up many times actually, and never once received an answer that made a damn bit of sense.
--
As to why I haven't really engaged in Cherokee rituals, I guess I feel my spiritual need is satiated.  Does that make sense to you?  I guess I just don't feel as though I am particularly detached from anything because I've never known it to begin with.  On an unrelated note, it's hard enough to fit in as much time as I do for scripture reading and spirituality because this world tries to choke it out of us, day by day, by this entire system...

I have more thoughts, but no more words.  I'm frusterated.  I try my hardest to make sense of things and to obtain answers and sometimes I feel all I meet is more confusion.

I was frustrated when I wasn't "doing" anything also...When I was younger(teenager) I used to be a couch revolutionary.   But since I became an activist I feel much more optimistic becuase I see the PEOPLE'S victories every day.

Putting MLK's infidelity asside(it seems that was and is used as an excuse or distraction to the true question at hand)...It was THE PEOPLE that created the civil rights movement...not just the catalyst/motivator MLK...The PEOPLE were organized and caused change(although I view the system's structural results like "affirmative action" as a pacification for revolution)....Were the POEPLE who were fighting for their rights being "part of the world"? What was the Jahova's Witness' role (or lack thereof) in the civil rights period?  

Whatever happeneed to the Biblical saying "God helps those who help themselves?

My resistance to this line of thinking is becuase I tend to believe that people who claim to not be "political" are suffering from a lobotamy. To me spirituality, politics, and culture are forever intwined...But that is the traditional African view of things. The European world view seperates the three(or at least usuccessfully attempt to) so that might be where our difference in opinion is derived from.

I see religion/spirituality as something to be lived...a lifestyle...behavior you have when interacting with society...All of society...not just picking and choosing non-controvercial issues...actually I view that as cowardess and retreat. Wouldn't Yeshua dealing with the poor and outcaste's of his society be viewed as a "controvercial political move" by those in power during his time?

And don't think I;m just attacking your faith...I know many Afric-centrists who do the same thing...They think they can "meditate" a better world...I find this is often used as a form of retreat, and an excuse so they don't actually have to "DO" somethng...Buddist too....They forget Buddah reached enlightenment and then spect the rest of his life fighting for the poor and oppressed. If we don't make this world a better place who will? Oh, I forgot...you think God will come back to do it...

My people are suffering now...I don't have the luxury of sitting back and waiting for something to happen or God to come back...that isn't patience...that is social castration...Life is more valuable than that...Actually anyone who claims to love humanity shouldn't feel as though they have that luxury.

Sounds like Napoleon was right.
You might want to re-listen to what Bob Marley'w teachings were...If you think he is correct that is...

Brother, I have been down so many mental avenues of thought in my short life of 23 years and found all of them dark & bleak.  What I mean by that is I came to the harsh realization years ago that my teenage dreams of making a "big" impact on the world for a positive were naive.  Instead, I succombed to pessimism, which is a large part why I became what some what refer to as a religious fanatic.  I see so little being done it depresses the living hell out of me.  And then I did try to make a push on a small scale to help people I knew that were having problems and all the people, "friends," I contacted were too self concerned even to do that.  All in all, I don't think man is capable of solving his own problems and if Jehovah, THE CREATOR of this global civilization gone awry, does NOT step in, I feel fairly certain mankind will drive himself and most of the other larger species extinct within a couple hundred years.  I'm not going to go deeply into Bible prophecy, but we have good reason to believe that the great day of Jehovah is near.  How near, no one knows.  Whether it will come even in my lifetime - still cannot say with certainty.  But I feel like mankind is eons away from ever acheiving anything and if anything we are going to go into another dark age.  SERIOUSLY.  

As for the MLK thing - I feel Malcolm X made much more of an impact.  I also have a much greater respect for Malcolm, even though he was quite racist at first (who the hell wouldn't be with what happened to his father, things said to him as a youth, and the treatment of his mother's mental illness), because of his high moral standards that he and the entire Nation of Islam lived up to.  Not just that, of course, but he WOKE UP the sleeping masses not only to the fact that they were opressed by whites, but that they were oppressing themselves with substance abuse, gambling, and utter acceptance of a second class citizen's role in society.  It's a shame that when he really obtained a good overstanding spiritually of the desire of all men to worship the True God - JAH or ALLAH - he was shot by his own former brothers.  One can only wonder what he might of accomplished.
To me, Dr. MLK seemed more or less to paint a pretty picture, but really do little more.  Malcolm exposed the gathering that occured in Washington as what it really was, a publicity stunt that made whites feel that they were not so bad afterall, when in fact, the fact is they were just starting to give rise to what has become the norm today: ignoring the problem and pretending it is already fixed, the main complain that is rightly voiced on this board.

I understand what you mean, but I'm almost at a loss, brother.  I'm not certain there's any impact I could even motivate myself to make in a world that is not only decaying morally and socially, but also ecologically.  It truly seems that the prophecies that are poetically revealed in the book of Daniel & Revelation are unraveling and that the hour is near.  If not, I'll die either way.  "To live is Christ, to die is gain," as Paul said.  

You say your people are suffering now.  I know.  A sister from Jamaica in my class today and I were talking about the situation in Haiti.  And then I move on and hear about Iraq on the radio.  There truly is no end.  Not just Afrikans are suffering...almost everyone except the power elite are going to be suffering b/c that is the aim of the "New World Order."  This, again, is another topic that many on this site know a lot of, and I, too, could write more - but the hour has come for me to get some sleep.

Just in closing, in curiousity, what do you do now in terms of activism?   INI remain open.  Pat me on the back as they may at the hall for the preaching work I do, I admit to myself much of it is futile and falls on deaf ears.  You know how spiritually mute this damned country is (USA).

You really believe you cannot make a difference? That is nonsense thinking when you say that because every man or woman in this planet can make a difference! So, join an organization whose position and views corresponds with yours. Get involved in Black communities' activities. Be Conscious of what's going on by reading local, national, and international papers. Respond to the media to express your opinions, let them know that a White American male read their paper agrees or disagrees with statements in their papers. Talk to friends and family about what is going in the world, educate yourself and others about the rich history of the Native American, African and Asian culture that are as relevant as the history of Europe. Come up with solutions no matter how small that can help humanity. Do your grassroots work and then you will see change. If you just give up and let it all be in the hand of the God you pray then you are certainly going to fail. You have to be doing something, anything. Sometimes you have to die for JUSTICE, that is action!

Don't be disappointed or irritated just because the people around you are not changing their old patterns for the highest good of yourself and others. Everyone needs to grown in their own way and in their own time, but YOU train your intellect to follow your rescuer/rebel path. You will gain higher consciousness and you will increasingly attract people who want to relate to you and what you believe to be true. Risk actions and learn in struggles. Only then, you will become a stronger and a more enlightened being. Trust me, the more you educate and empower yourself, the more powerful tool you become to make a significant change in this world.

Bantu Kelani.