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25519 Posts in 9755 Topics by 980 Members Latest Member: - Roots Dawta Most online today: 58 (July 03, 2005, 11:25:30 PM)
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2004, 06:44:23 PM »

ILovGod,

I'm glad you took the time to respond.  I'd thought that you abandoned this discussion.  All I am hoping to accomplish is to clear up these wild misunderstandings you have of Jehovah's organization.  In doing so, I'm using not my words, but those of Jehovah and Christ Jesus themselves, directly from the Bible.  Thus, if you reject the truths of the scriptures, as many often do in our ministry, the fault cannot be found in my reasonings.  My hope is that through a more close examination of the Bible, you'll come to realize that there is much more to Jehovah's plan for the vindication of his sovreignty and man's salvation than you may currently realize.  So do please take the time to read these points slowly because I feel you may be rushing through my words by the inaccuracy of your understanding of my replies.

Addressing your points in order:

1 and 2,
Please read my posts more carefully.  Either you have a problem with reading comprehension (I'm not intending to be insulting) or you're just trying to stir up conflict, and "a slave of the Lord does not need to fight." (2 Timothy 2:24).  It's just not possible for anyone to come right back and say we don't believe in eternal life after the post I just made explaining how we gain eternal life.  And you have not learned the truth of Jehovah's organization contrary to what you tell me, or you would know that we do believe in eternal life, Jesus is important to our faith and is our savior, and many other things that have been incorrectly blasphemed in Satan's attack on our faith.

As far as "doing research on my faith," as you call it, all the research I will ever do is with scriptures.  I'm not interested in reading the diatribe of some pompous fool in Christendom that is writing his propanganda and lies (John 8:44).  But if anyone ever wants to present an idea to me using the Word of God, then that is righteous and acceptable.  All other ideology is manmade refuse and not worthy of discussion or consideration.

Did you not see the fact that a resurrection of the dead is what grants them the prospect of eternal life?  Until the apostasy (which became Christendom), the resurrection was the only hope that Jews entertained for a hope of eternal life.  Consider these scriptures:

"Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombas will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of of judgement."  -John 5:28, 29

Now stop and actually think for a moment for me here, will you?  What is the need for a resurrection of the dead if they are all currently floating around in the the clouds playing harps and drinking wine?  I know the myths that the antichrist pastors of Christendom feed people may sound comforting, but the truth of the matter is AS I HAVE SHOWN YOU AUTHORITATIVELY USING SCRIPTURES ALONE: Fuiste polvo, polvo eres; To dust you return, for you are dust.  All hope of eternal life resides with Jesus' authoritative decision on each person's salvation.  

Paul, too, expressed his knowledge of this fundamental truth of the true Christian faith:
"and I have a hope towards God, which hope these men (these men being the Jews) themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." -Acts 24:15

See, prior to the mythological additions to Christendom of the immortality of the soul, an invention of Greek philosophy, the only hope for eternal life was the resurrection hope.  Thus, the true Christian faith, being founded on Judaism, the root of Christianity, would entertain the same hope.  Christendom is easily identifyable as an imposterous religion due to the fact that it does not present this hope to its worshippers as the true method of Jehovah God's restoration of paradise.  Continuing, with scriptures,

"The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, star differs from star in glory.  So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory.  It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power.  It is sown a physical body, it is raised up in a spiritual body.  If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one."  -1 Corinthians 15:42-44

So here again you see that there is a change that takes place before one gains eternal life, and it requires a "[raising] up" before one gains eternal life.  So quite clearly that must occur before one lives eternally.  Continuing with this, read this scripture:

"This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day.  For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day." -John 6:39,40

Now, I ask you a very simple reading comprehension question here: When does it say the resurrection will occur?  If you answered "the last day," you are correct!  And since the scripture before it clearly explains that no one is "raised up" to life until the resurrection, you clearly see that no one is raised up to eternal life until the last day.  Since the last day has yet to come, the dead are still awaiting the time when they will "hear his (Jesus') voice and come out" (Jn 5:28).  

The scriptures from Eccl 5:9,10 and Psalm 146:4 that tell of the dead's condition, of being "conscious of nothing at all" then should not serve as bleak statements that this life is all there is! Rather, they affirm a comforting truth to those who have lost ones in death, that they are not suffering in a fictional hell, or wandering around a vast spiritual purgatory awaiting redemption.  Rather, they are simply awaiting the sound of Jesus Christ's voice to resume their life, the "real life" as the apostle Paul calls it in the Bible.

3 "Paul did not write any message in Revelation, but John only.  You mention Matthew 5:5 That the Meek will possess the earth, but will you deny in the same chapter MAtthew 5:3 where it mensions heaven?, how about Revelation 7:13-17."

I didn't realize I said anything about Paul & Rev.  If I did, it was a typo - I sometimes confuse words of the same number of letters in my head because I'm a numerically orientated thinker.  Sorry, Nonetheless, continuing,

Yes.  Exactly.  Heaven AND Earth.  I showed that there are two hopes.  There are 144,000 who are selected by Jesus Christ to reign in the heavens (Revelation 7, Revelation 14).  And then there is the majority of mankind, the "great crowd," as I mentioned who lives forever on Earth.  The scripture you mentioned Rev 7:13-17 refers to them, the vast multitude that will survive the great tribulation.

Concerning the sermon on the mount in Matthew 5, we know that Jesus was aware when he spoke those words that heaven and earth are two different places, so it's rather obvious as well that he knew there were to be two destinies for his followers.

Whether or not you agree with this theology is no longer the point here - it's whether you are able to see that is derived from the scriptures which state that there will be those who "will possess the earth and reside for ever upon it" (Psalm 37:29) and those who [are/were] "bought from the earth" (Revelation 14:3).

4.  

I applaud your understanding of the scriptures here.  The scribes & pharisees were indeed absolutely insensed that Jesus would dare to compare himself to Almighty God.  Also, it is good that you understand that Jesus Christ is in union with Jehovah God, but this is not to be taken in the same sense of a mathematical union, but rather a spiritual union, if you understand what I mean by that.  I can be in union with Jesus Christ, as can you, and any follower of his Way, but that does not equate us with Jesus Christ in any way shape or form.  Read the context of the scripture in John when he says that he is in union with God:

"...You blaspheme, because I said I am God's Son?  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me.  But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, in order that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father." John 10:36-38

You see here that he is discussing his actions and his Father's will.  In what sense are they "in union?"  Not in the sense that they are the same person, but that they are seeking to accomplish the same objective and that the work in cohesion with one another.  

You say, very boldly again might I add, that "The Trinity is teach in the scriptures by Jesus himself when he said if you see me you have seen the father, Jesus said I and the Father am one( John 10:30)."

This is the scripture here that proceeded the illustration above I just quoted.  Husband and Wife are one, but are they part of a trinity?  If Jesus wanted Christians to worship a three-headed god, he would have made it known in some illustration or teaching.  Rather, his so-called followers did it in reverse order, made the three-headed god and then tried to find illustrations and scriptures taken out of context to support it.  It wasn't mentioned in the first century congregations anywhere in Paul's letters; the apostles did not mention it in their Gospels; and Jesus did not teach of it nor ever utter the word.  

It is a man made concept and it's a rather common one at that.  Ancient Babylon had a triune godhead (Ishtar, Sin, Shamash), so does Hinduism (Brahma, Siva, Visnu), ancient Egypt (Osirus, Isus, Horus), Buddhism (Kampuchea).  Can it be made any more obvious that the trinity is a teaching of non-Christian religions that was integrated into Christianity?  I've used some concrete historical evidence to demonstrate the pagan origins of the cross and now the trinity and yet you continue to defend them.  Remember what Paul wrote in Colossians 2:21 concerning the things that were "of the world" and not a true part of the Christian faith (reference is made to fornication, but also to "unclean things," which pagan practices certainly are):

"Do not handle, nor taste, nor touch, respecting things that are destined to destruction by being used up in accordance with the teachings of men?"

So the admonition is to be taken seriously.  If these things do not originate with God, but rather with religions you do not practice, you should seriously examine the role they have in your faith.  Consider this scripture referring to spiritual adultery, which is the mixing of pagan teachings, such as the trinity!

"For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband that I might present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."  -2 Corinthians 11:2

Now, if we are to be chaste spiritual virgins for Christ, should we be mixing in elements that came from pagan worship such as triune godheads and crosses?  I should think not!

Quote:
"You quoted Matthew 15:9, but you do not understand what it means, because you take it out of context read the whole chapter, and see that these people where worshiping Jesus with their mouth only and not from their heart which makes it a vain, or useless worship."

You're partially right, but the context has application to the trinity and I'll explain how.  "Christians" today often stake a claim on their salvation by an understanding of Jehovah and Jesus Christ, yet many of them do not understand either of them in their true, unadulterated essence.  The trinity accomplishes this diabolic purpose, in that, those that are dogmatically enamored with the trinity integrate it as part of their relationship with the false god they create by worshipping a triune god when we there is only one Jehovah, Almighty God, "alone, most high over all the earth" (Ps 83:18).  In the context of Matthew 15:9 they are questioning why the apostles did not wash their hands, and Jesus reveals that their expressions of piety are not what save them, but rather their hearts and their true spirituality.  Similarly, these "scholars" or even laymen that are consumed with the false doctrine of the trinity justify their salvation through the knowledge they have accrued of these man-made teachings and ignore the most fundamental Christian doctrines: such as loving your neighbor, and loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind.  When all one's emphasis is placed on doctrines, rules, and ideology, true spirituality is often lost, thus they are said to be "worshipping in vain."   Understand my use of the scripture now?

5:  I can't even believe you are that brainwashed by the media.  Politicians are run by one thing and one thing only:  money. Big business - OIL - will be a source of immense political support as it is a large brace in the structure of the Global Economy. It may make you feel warm and cozy to think that he went over there in the name of God as some humanitarian crusader, but it was all about the bottom LINE $.  Like Rootsie said, at least in Russia the people knew the media was lying.  Here, people like yourself gobble up their fecal sandwiches like its manna from heaven.

6. "We still live on this earth and we must take part in politics to help keep evil leaders away from ruling us like Sadam, or Papa Doc. in Haiti."

Was Jesus concerned with liberating the Jews from oppressive rulership by the Romans?  No.  That's why they rejected him; their "version" of the Messiah would do such things.  The true Christian thus acts like the Jesus that was rejected, advocating and prophesying of God's kingdom and not being consumed with the political affairs of Satan's world.  Saddam Hussein and Castro may not be just rulers in your opinion, but they are going to pop up all over the world regardless of how many patriotic zealots there are trying to make the entire world fly a red, white, and blue flag.  Further, to let you in on a secret:  most of Cuba loves Castro.  Don't ask me why.

7:  Still seems like you're dancing around the idol and saying it's not there.  A cross won't save anyone.

"Trinity all three = One God, and God teach us this as with a Husband and Wife where two have join themselves together and become one flesh in marriage."

It's ironic that you used the very example here (I read and replied to each point in order) that I used as a counter example.  I guess it's all a matter of perspective on spiritual union.  Thus, you see in a sense:  the trinity I don't believe in may be the one you do believe in.  Or, to state it more accurately:  Words are so inadequate for matters of the spirit.  Yes?

Anyway, Jah-bless for discussion.  I hope you're beginning to gain a semblance of understanding of the faith to which I am proud to belong.  I am not denouncing you or your beliefs, but only "[making] a defense before everyone that demands...a reason for the hope in you...with mild temper and deep respect." (1 Peter 3:15, PQ)  Haters and opposers can throw words like "cult" around till they are blue in the face, but the spiritual paradise and unity we experience as witnesses is unmatched by any sect in Christendom...The organization is not perfect, and there have been errors made, such as some of the prophecy dates, but what organization is?  The fact that our errors have not resulted in millions of deaths, like the "Holy" Crusades or WWI & WWII (which were clergy spurred & supported in some countries) is a source of solace for me.  Further, the WT Society, humans like the rest of us (!), admit their errors and correct them rather than stubbornly insisting on being correct (Ahem, Catholic church vs. Copernicus...etc, etc).  

Nonetheless, I look forward to continuing to reason with you if you desire to do so.

-brett
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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
ILovGod
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« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2004, 11:45:12 PM »

Well it was nice chatting with you, but we can go on and on with this subject forever, but I see that you are strongly rooted in your belief.
Hopefully you can take the bible literally, and believe it for what it says instead of trying to analyze every little detail in it. I believe that God can keep His words pure. Many have tried to distroy it, but the bible have been around for hundreds of years and it is still changing lives. I trust that one day you will see that there is a heaven, a spirit in all man, and a new Jerusalem. Read Galation 5. Paul wrote to be absant from the body is to be presant with the Lord for those who follow Him read 2 Corinthians 5:8, and try not to analyze it, try not to break it down to what you want it to say, but instead take Gods words as He says it.
May God open your eyes to see His words as truth.
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2004, 12:15:26 AM »

It absolutely ASTOUNDS me that you can read all of what I wrote and still say such things as "I trust that one day you will see that there is a heaven."  !!  I absolutely believe in heaven; and I also believe in eternal life on earth.  The Bible clearly makes a distinction that there are TWO hopes for eternal salvation.  Further, I know I made that clear enough for you to understand in my replies, so clearly there is something lacking in your mental comprehension abilities.  

You are correct about God's word being perserved, and I take the scriptures that are intended to be literal, literally, which I why I do not believe such integrated pagan concepts such as the trinity which were never teachings of the early Christian church nor was it explicity taught by Christ himself.  It's just a doctrine based on misunderstood and miscontrued scriptures.  So I, too, pray that you may come to see the outright deception of the preachers that are so highly regarded within the faith of Christendom.  I even highlighted for you that the trinity doctrine existed in pagan religions that were around before the advent of Christianity and that had no mental effect on you nor did it even elicit a response.  I guess I should appologize for attempting to make you think.

"May God open your eyes to see His words as truth."

You can save your condescending encouragement for those that need it.  I've exercised my faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ and do my best to practice the word of Almighty Jehovah and to adhere to his principles.  I will maintain my faith until the end, as "it is he that endures to the end that shall be saved." (Mt 24:13)  The bold truth of the scriptures is made clear in the specific scriptures I highlighted in my posts which you subsequently ignored, either unwilling or unable to make a reply to such clearly formed logic.  

Make no mistake, I'm not judging you by any means whatsoever, we're not to do so as imperfect and sinful humans (Mt 7; Luke 6:34). I'm simply disgusted at how the cesspool of Christendom and has stained your ability to read and understand scriptures, because if you logically read through the posts I made, it paints a clear picture of Jehovah God's plan for man's salvation...

Thanks for the discussion - I only wish that my words weren't used so in vain because it really appears you did not even read them at all by such blazenly ignorant comments such as that I don't believe in heaven.  Perhaps I am being too harsh, though, because in complete seriousness, I doubt your ability to read, comprehend, and assimilate information.  Bye.

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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
out_of_Zion
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« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2004, 12:37:49 AM »

Last - since I did not touch on it.

In the entire letters of Corinthians I & II (and indeed throughout all the Pauline epistles) Paul is writing to the John class of annointed Christians, those who would indeed inherit the heavenly kingdom, you are right.  The other hope, "the great multitude" of Revelation, those that will live on the earth forever, however, does not share this hope.  As I wrote in the post above this:  2 hopes, 2 destinies.  God's completed creation is a theocracy, which by definition has rulers and subjects.  The earthly dwelling Christians are the subjects; the anointed John class are the beneficient rulers - contrasted with what we commonly think of when we hear the word "ruler" in today's context.
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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
Rootsie
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WWW
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2004, 04:26:45 AM »

quote from Joseph Campbell:

" ‘We should understand well," said an old  [Lakota] medicine man, Black Elk, the Keeper of the Sacred  Pipe of his tribe, "that all things are the works of the Great Spirit. We should know that He is within all things: the trees, the grasses, the rivers, the mountains, and all the four-legged animals, and the winged peoples; and even more important, we should understand that He is alo above all these things and peoples. When we do understand all this deeply in our hearts, then we will fear, and love, and know the great Spirit, and then we will be and act and live as He intends.’
    Wherever myths still are living symbols, the mythologies are teeming dreamworlds of such images. But wherever systematizing theologians have appeared and gained the day…the figures have become petrified into propositions. Mythology is misread then as direct history or science, symbol becomes fact, metaphor dogma, and the quarrels of the sects arise, each mistaking its own symbolic signs for the ultimate reality…
    ‘But he who is called Krishna,’ said the nineteenth century Indian teacher Ramakrishna, ‘is also called Shiva and bears the names Shakti, Jesus, and Allah as well-the one Rama with a thousand names…The substance is one under different names and everyone is seeking the same substance; nothing but climate, temperament, and names vary.’" 73
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Tracey
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Rootsie.com


« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2004, 01:46:30 PM »

Yes )))))

..well said. This thread attests to the very nature of this sentiment...

Quote
But wherever systematizing theologians have appeared and gained the day…the figures have become petrified into propositions. Mythology is misread then as direct history or science, symbol becomes fact, metaphor dogma, and the quarrels of the sects arise, each mistaking its own symbolic signs for the ultimate reality…


...so true
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2004, 02:15:51 AM »

This thread attests to the need for a higher emphasis on literacy.  It's tough to discuss theology with people that lack basic reading skills.   Roll Eyes
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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
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