Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

I was pondering the idea of divine intervention and asked myself, when and where will it occur? What else has to happen before god intervenes? Or has nothing really horrible occured in present times that calls for divine intervention? I ask this not for myself but for others who have had injustices done against them. Where is god, while the world suffers?

You ask good questions - and from what I know you do regard the Bible, yes?  My answers come from it.

As to when the time will come - We simply do not know.  Many have (incorrectly) speculated on a date, a year, a time, but Yeshua told us we would not know.  Consider these scriptures:

"When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him:  "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?"  He said to them:  "It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction..." -Acts 1:6,7

"Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father...Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."  -Matthew 24:36,42

"You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely the Son of man is coming." -Luke 12:40

So - you see, simply we are not granted any special insight into the day that will come.  

But, you also ask, what has to happen for God to intervene.  Quite truly : NOTHING.  You see from those three scriptures I listed that the day and hour are already set.  Why, then, the wait?

Let's take a look at another scripture that shows just why Jah is allowing this to go on so long.

"Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire for any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.  Yet Jehovah's day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered." -2 Peter 3:9,10

So we see the reason it is continuing like this is because he wants for the wicked one to come to accept him and his Son as their savior so that all may become worshippers of Almighty JAH.  

Where is God while the world suffers?  Suffering with us, watching, and waiting for the time when he can step in, as he did in Egypt, on a much grander scale, to free everyone from the oppression of a Satanic system that leaves his meek ones (Mt 5:5) oppressed, but waiting to inherit his kingdom...

Lastly,

"Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world.  If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because everything in the world - the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one's means of life - does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world.  Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of the God remains forever.."  -1 Jn. 2:15-17

So what do we do in the meantime, preach?  DO GOD'S WILL.  Be good & righteous; be patient, and exhibit a "waiting attitude on the God of [our] salvation." (Micah 7:7), while we share JAH word with those who want to hear it.  Knowledge of when Jah will step in and intervene is beyond our capabilities to ascertain, so we can concern ourselves with what is in our jurisdiction as the scripture says - namely love of our brothers and sisters.   :)

peace

Thanks out of zion for your optimism and strong faith. I have neither,  and it is the result of personal experiences  and observations.  The idea of divine intervention, or a saviour returning appears to be just a ploy to instill hope in an otherwise hopeless situation.  When our people were enslaved they waited for a saviour to no avail and here we are hundred of years later and still not a sign. The holy books offer false promises that leads one to challenge their authenticity. I sometimes wonder if god created us then set out on another venture. To say that  the creator is testing us, knowing  very well that we are weak ; the idea is crazy. In this day and age with no physical evidence and with so much despair , why should a person believe in god but out of fear.

when one SEPERATES themselves from the creator(for the creation is the opposite side of the creator),then disaster strikes.start KNOWING(not believing) that u are one with the Alpha and Omega,and when u do your work NOW,thats divine intervention.the ALL endowed us with the power to be REPLICAS of them on earth.if ones will just tap into the consciousness theyhad BEFORE the earth was created......

greetings in the name of the most high,

i agree with house_of_ra-sta, we were made in likeness of Jah (the creator). therefore we are also creators. it is up to man-kind to keep up with the well being of each other. i believe the terrible things you speak of going on throughout the earth is a failure of man-kind, not a negligence of Jah.

peace

Yes, wise & true words.

Preach - I have felt all too similar to you and have not always been a person of strong faith, but we can't derive faith based on our own thought alone, it comes from reflective prayer (meditation) on the fact that this universe simply could not have arisen with the level of order without a creator.

Reminds I of a parable I was told by a teacher of mine.  Issac Newton had constructed a model of the solar system that turned by crank and made the 9 (observable planets of his time) revolve around the sun in a precise and exact ordered manner according to the observations and actual rotations.  Upon seeing this, a student said "Who made that?!" in astonishment.  Newton replied, "No one."  The student of course said that this was impossible.  "How, then, is it that you believe the same thing about the solar system and God?" Newton replied...

Many things are far beyond our comprehension, such as how this universe got here to begin with.  Ecclesiastes says we may never know all the work of the true God.  But other things are not, and INI certainly don't believe in Jehovah Almighty out of fear as INI don't believe at all in a hellfire for sinners - such is Satanic.  The very worst that can happen to someone is death and disappearance.  We become "conscious of nothing at all" (Eccl 9:5).  So certainly don't ever think we must worship Jehovah out of a fear of damnation.  We should serve Him out of love and thanksgiving.  

You have a good heart I can see.  It pains you to see this world as it is...which is more than can be said for many ones who are simply content because their life circumstances are good and say the rest is beyond their control.  For the time being, preach, I say to ya just be loving and do not put too much emphasis on things we cannot wrap our minds around fully.  It's what I try to do.  I certainly have a difficult time envisioning the resurrection mentioned by Yeshua (John 5:29, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:42)...but I have an equally difficult time imaging the formation of the galaxies and planets, and they are here.  So I don't try to rack my brain and perplex it with things that we as humans have just barely begun to have insight into - that energy and matter are one in the same, et al.

I just recommend to follow the two commandments that Yeshua said fulfill the prophets, "You must love the Lord Jah with your whole, heart, your whole mind and your whole soul.  The second is like this, you must love your brother as yourself.  On this the words of the prophets rest."  (paraphrased from memory).  For the time being, just keep fulfilling the 2nd, loving everyone as best you can.  

"Allez en avant et fois viendra..."

Here is how our New World Translation translates Hebrews 11:1 which "defines" faith in Paul's words:

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not withheld."  

The NIV translates "evident demonstration" as "evidence."  So, this could be said, "the evidence of realities not withheld, or seen."  Evidence of the unseen.  Thus it requires an ability to deduce its existence based on things that can be seen.  In this case, that is our physical creation...as I mentioned above.  

Peace.

WE ARE THE "GOD" YOU SPEAK OF....NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNTIL THE "GOD PEOPLE" OR "PEOPLE OF GOD" RISE UP TO MAKE CHANGE. UNTIL THEN YOUR KNEES WILL JUST KEEP ON HURTIN!

WE NEED TO STOP WAITING ON A MYSTERY GOD TO SAVE US FROM THIS CONDITION. IF HE AINT CAME BY NOW HE AINT COMING. STOP PRAYING TO YOURSELVES AND GET UP OFF YOUR KNEES AND OUTTA THEM DAMN CHURCHES AND DO SOMETHIN!!!! REALIZE THE GOD IN YOU.

TO THE EUROPEAN GOD IS IN OUTER SPACE......
TO THE AFRIKAN GOD IS IN INNER SPACE

UNDERSTAND?

I understand, but surely you can tell by what I've written I do not agree by any means whatsoever.

peace...
i'm thinking about the same thing....
the white power structure is polluting the earth
to death...killing people torturing people
stealing resources......and if you fight back
they will punish you.....and this has been
going on for hundreds of years.....
so yes i am asking myself...why would
a merciful God allow this to happen?
I do believe that the day of rapture
will involve UFO's.....but when????
Nevertheless one the thoughts in my
cipher is how to organize a violent
overthrow of the United States Government....
as impossible as seems i still got to
continue to ponder it because
as the Ras said...no mystery God will save us......
in order to overthrow the US government
you would first have to go within the
US armed forces and turn them against
these devils....you will find that most people
joined the army to elevate their social
and economic status.....

Yiv given me some thought to work with Micah and I am gonig to stray from scripture since I have already put enough in the thread for tha moment.

Personally I don't know about the existence of UFOs.  What I mean by that is that I simply do not know what the phenomenon is.  I am not denying that something is going on, but whether it is geomagnetic activity, government underground technology, or whatever other possibility (even alien life) I am not sure.

As far as this Satanic government falling, without going into scripture again: it will happen on its own.   Look at its precursor, Rome.  No one ever thought it would fall, and yet - it surely did.

NO NATION FALLS ON ITS OWN BROTHA, ROME DIDNT JUST FALL APART. POWER CONCEDES NOTHING WITHOUT STRUGGLE, REAL STRRUGGLE NOT NO SPOOK SPIRITUAL STRUGGLE BUT REAL PERSON TO PERSON, IDEOLOGY AGAINST IDEOLOGY, CULTURE VS. CULTURE PHYSICAL STRUGGLE.

I SAW ON THE HISTORY CHANNEL THAT THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE (CANT REMEMBER THEIR NAMES) WHOM THE ROMANS CONQUERED (MUCH LIKE US) WHO MIXED IN WITH THEIR SOCIETY, WERE TREATED LIKE LOW CLASS SECOND HAND CITIZENRY, JOIN THEIR MILITARY AND DIED SO THE SONS OF ROME WOULD NOT HAVE TOO AND AT THE RIGHT MOMENT. REVOLUTION!!!!!

ACCOURDING TO THIS STORY THEY AIRED, THIS WAS IN PART ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THE FALL OF ROME. PEOPLE ROSE UP AGAINST ROME, THEY DIDNT PRAY, OR JUST AQUIRE KNOWLEDGE AND WAITE ON SOME GOD TO MOVE FOR THEM,  THEY MADE MOVES AND DONE SOMETHING TO LIBERATE THEMSELVES. ROME WAS A POWERFUL COUNTRY BROTHA YET THEY WERE UNDERMIND AND DESTROYED BY A PEOPLE THEY CONSIDERED LESS THEN THEMSELVES.

(ALL THOSE THAT HAVE AN EAR, LET THEM HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT OF OUR ANCESTORS TEACHES US THROUGH HISTORY. FOR AS I WAS IN THE BEGINNING, SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END)

peace...
go to any good libarary like the one
at grand army plaza...read any major
newspaper from Feb 26th 1942......
front page will problably be a story....
California where people died when
US fighter jets fired shells at a UFO
and the shells fell to the ground and
killed civilians.....but regardless if its
UFO's or good old fashioned hail snow
earthquakes rain.....God is waiting
for some reason....so in regard to that
and our self savior and revolution.....
i will direct you to the good Lao Tzu
from the Tao Te Ching...
17. Rulers
The best rulers are scarcely known by their subjects;
The next best are loved and praised;
The next are feared;
The next despised:
They have no faith in their people,
And their people become unfaithful to them.
When the best rulers achieve their purpose
Their subjects claim the achievement as their own.

WELL WHEN THIS GOD COMES, MAKE SURE HE MAKES HIS WAY TO THE GHETTO....THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE SOMETHIN TO SAY TO HIM AND IT AINT GOOD. >:(

I completely agree with your stance on this subject Rasnubian!...Many people would rather wait on a savior than act to liberate themselves and their fellow man from the evil clutches of imperialism and capitalism/neo-colonialism/globalization and racism...It is much easier to sit and wait...if you are comfortable to a certain degree that is....This is the ideology that the the petty bourgeoisie and the elites want the masses to have...so that the masses do nothing to challenge their power...It is a good example of why and how Christianity has been used a an oppressive and anti-revolutionary ideological force during colonization and slavery...But the MASSES of humanity are oppressed and impoverished...so this evil empire WILL fall if WE are organized and ideologically trained.

If Yeshua came back(if he was ever 1 individual in history and not an imalgimation/copy of previous "pagan" mythical figures), or any other "God" figure returned, I'd have to tell him/her to step asside. I want to kick the colonial/imperial/capitalist ass. This is OUR fight(the people)....not his/hers! (Of course I don't come from this literalist way of interpretting spirituality anyhow, Spirituality should be a tool to fuel righteous fire...not as an elitist tool to extinguish it! The ancestors, God and the spirits "come down/back/live amongst and in us" every day and they feed my spririt to fight for justice!) The capitalist elite have done this evil to the masses of humanity...It is up to US to destroy the system that enslaves us! Anyone who doesn't consciousely work against this evil system is subconsciously an agent and working for the enemy...and disguising this support of the system in spirituality compounds the evil nature of it all.

peace...
well...you cannot blame God for what is happening here on earth....THe Black Man gave birth to everything in existence including the white race...and the creation of the white race was a result of Black man breaking the laws of nature......
God has already returned but only to a select few......
the Rastafari are some of those select few....
but when God makes himself known to all humanity its gonna be a motherf&*(&*(er......
and this return of God amoung the select few has killed the mystery God......as Robert Nesta(the one who got Selassie ring) Peter Tosh and Jah-B said...."WE KNOW AND WE UNDERSTAND.....A MIGHTY GOD IS A LIVING MAN".....

"Vengeance is mine, and retribution, At the appointed time their foot will move unsteadily, For the day of their disaster is near, And the events in readiness for them do make haste."  -Dueteronomy 32:35

"Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yeild place to wrath; for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay," says Jah."  -Romans 12:19

"For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will recompense;" and again: "Jah will judge his people."  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." -Hebrews 10:30,31

Sorry, looks like Jah doesn't approve of that mindset.

Sorry, but your point is moot with me and the majority of the colonized masses...YOUR god doesn't approve of this mindset. YOUR god is 100% grade a approved by the oppressor! The same oppressor who gave us Africans the Helio Biblio(Sun Book) in the first place, and told us OUR spirituality was evil and wrong(Our meaning anything outside of the Bible). I call upon MY ancestor's warrior spirits Shango, Eggun, ect...not the Euro-centric, secret society, capitalists elite twisted version of the Bible you are quoting from. Lay down and let the oppressor take your mind and your soul if you wish...I will fight for my freedom and the freedom of my PEOPLE! It's not about vengence...Vengence is something to get back at someone for wrong doing...It is about getting the colonial/imperialist/capitalist monkey off of my people's back! You might not mind US having a yoke around our necks....but I do, and so do the impoverished and oppressed masses of the planet! You can wait for a savior if you wish....I prefer to work towards my freedom. Though without action is dead! The PEOPLE Will be our own saviors...Anything less is a copout.

Fair enough, but I'm not quoting from a Euro-centric bible but rather one that has been translated straight from the Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek into modern day English...without the Latin and Catholic-dominant interpretations settling their refuse in between.

No, I do believe in the spiritual realm.  String theory all but confirms it - which the Kaballahists predicted thousands of years before...

I'm merely saying that those who wish to debunk spiritual visions have a wealth of reasons to do so, and always will detract from them in one way or another.

out of zion I thank you for your words and apologize for not responding sooner. I await the day when my faith is renewed but it will have to be something cataclysmic. In the meantime I still believe in my people, which I guess has kept me from completely denouncing god. It absolutely warms my heart and makes me envious to hear the passion of the faithful. At the same time I do not understand blind faith. More times than not I come to the conclusion that god does not exist and we must do for self.  

"When a cause comes along and you know in your bones that it is just, yet refuse to defend it--at that moment you begin to die. And I have never seen so many corpses walking around talking about justice." - Mumia Abu-Jamal

Oshun, please explain the quote and its relevance.
thanks in advance.

NOW THATS SOME DEEP SHIT!!!!!!