Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

Jesus was called 'Rabbi' by the Pharasees and I read Rabbis had to be married men. The Knights Templar had the knowledge that Jesus was married. The Church tried to eliminate this Order because they knew too much. Other Books of the Bible are eliminated that told the marriage feast of Cana that was Jesus wedding to Mary Magdeline. A great slander was done to Mary Magdeline making her to be a whore of little importance. To tell that Jesus was truly all human the Church could not teach he was Divine. Next followed the Oath of Celibacy.
I've read alot of gnostic texts from the link below and I personally thing Jesus was married.

Bantu-Kelani.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html

http://www.womenpriests.org/magdala/magd_ovr.htm

Peace.

So the question that pop-culture Jesus-ians must ask is not:

"what would Jesus do?"

but rather:

"WHO would Jesus do?"

;D
are you deep enough to be shallow?

HEy I'm new to the forum

But Jesus being maried is true from my findings in the Bible. When Jesus went to the wedding and one of the guest said that the wine had ran out. Now if anyone who have ever experience this you know that if this would happen (wine running out) you go to the groom to tell him. Thats just what happen in this case the man went to Jesus and told him that the wine ran out.

TREE-NATTY

Welcome to the board TREE-NATTY. Give us ample examples for I do not see how your claim supports mine in an intelligible way.

B.K

To further support my claim Jesus was married, I say Mary Magdalen was an Temple Priestess!

Four pieces of Gospel evidence strongly point to Mary Magdalen as a temple priestess of the Goddess. The first is her title "Magdalen" almost identical to "Magdala," noted to be the name of the triple-towered temple of the Goddess Mari-Anna-Ishtar. Literally, "Mary of the Magdala" signifies "Mary of the Goddess Temple." Christian tradition has said that Mary is of the town "Magdala" or "Migdal," which was known as "The Village of Doves," a place where sacred doves were bred for the Goddess temple. In either case, two threads of strong symbolism link the name Magdalen to contemporary Goddess worship.

Next, Mary is known as a prostitute, just as the Goddess priestesses were titled "Sacred Prostitutes," although a more recent and accurate translation titles them "Sacred Women" or "hierodulae". Such prostitutes were considered evil by Jewish leaders of the time. That Jesus (Yeshua) would associate with such a woman would indeed invoke the scorn of his disciples, as is recorded in the New Testament.

Thirdly, Mary Magdalen is identified in Mark and Luke as the woman who was possessed by seven demons, which Yeshua cast out of her. The seven demons were a symbolic part of a temple ritual known as "The Descent of Inanna" one of the most ancient ceremonies known, recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh. This ritual was known to be practiced in the Jerusalem temple of Mari-Anna-Ishtar.

The last, and perhaps strongest, piece of evidence is the anointing of Yeshua with the sacred oil, an event which (uncharacteristically) was recorded in all four New Testament Gospels, pointing to its significance. The anointing of the Jesus' head with oil (as described in Mark 14:3-4) is an unmistakable symbol of The Sacred Marriage, a ceremony performed by temple priestesses.

Read "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold" by Acharya S

Bantu-Kelani.

Peace.

"
Thirdly, Mary Magdalen is identified in Mark and Luke as the woman who was possessed by seven demons, which Yeshua cast out of her. The seven demons were a symbolic part of a temple ritual known as "The Descent of Inanna" one of the most ancient ceremonies known, recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh. This ritual was known to be practiced in the Jerusalem temple of Mari-Anna-Ishtar."


(http://www.free-market.net/images/liberty-gallery/statue7.gif)
 
our beloved sacred prostitute with the seven rays on her head. the woman who was the model for the statue of liberty was indeed a French prostitute. babylon is alive and well.

Wow, this is all new to me... give thanks for the information. If anyone else has more information on Mary Magdalene please post it as I am very interested.

Give thanks Iyah for the blunt truth... CHA

People can read and write false stories on Jesus, and people are so easy to believe them. No Jesus was not married he is God, and there is nothing in scriptures to say that Jesus was ever married, there's nothing in scriptures about A so called wife, or name of a woman that was ever married to Jesus.
Quit reading false doctrines and get into the real book call the Bible its full of truth.
Jesus was called rabbi meaning teacher, because they refuse to accept Him as Lord they saw Him as a teacher only.
Jesus mother went to Jesus to ask for a MIRACLE to turn the water into wine not a guy.
Mary Magdalen was not the woman who poured oil on Jesus head the bible only says that it was a woman, and Jesus said she did this to prepare His body for  burial not a wedding as you said, and this thing that she did was done becaues Jesus forgive her of her sin Mark 14:3-10. Anything added to this is false.

ILovGod,

Jesus is not God.  He is the Son of God.

"But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God..." -Jn 20:30

Jehovah is God.  

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, YOU ALONE are the most high over all the earth." -Ps 83:18

But I do agree that Jesus was unwed throughout his life.  Marriage was not a part of his purpose while he was here on the Earth.  He was in the temples studying the schrolls as early as 12 we know from the gospels and after his baptism, when Jah spoke from the sky saying "This is my Son, the beloved," he knew his ultimate destiny was to have his life offered up in behalf of those who would exercise faith in his name.  Marriage, being a union between man and woman usually for the sake of a family arrangement simply did not abet his purpose of serving the ransom sacrifice for all mankind.

These things that are not included in the Bible are Gnostic texts and have been deemed non-canonical because they are not in accordance with the main gospels.  They could not print gospels that contradict one another, could they?  Obviously one or the other was spurious.  Which?  The less common one.  The illustrations of the Gnostic gospels did not seem to have eminated from Jesus and were likely either passed on from hear-say and were words that were attributed to him, but not actually his.  Either that or they were fabricated altogether.

The reason this unscholarly gossip appeals to people is because it paints the picture of Jeshua as a carnal minded person just like the rest of humanity; it debases the fact that he was of divine nature and had a pre-human existence in the heavens.  Anything the demons can use like this to debase Christ and his Messianic purpose is used...because falsifiers love to feed on the fecal matter that so-called scholars churn out.

As I have stated, under Judaic laws of the time, the historical Yeshua/Jesus could not be a "Rabbi" unless he was married!! But Yeshua marriage and his children are the secret Christianity does not want you to know, because the early Christian church leadership was based on the concept of apostolic descent, which only works if Yeshua died without heirs. In the 1200s, the Catholic Church, in order to consolidate power, undertook to erase from the world the descendants of the historical Yeshua and all public record that they had ever existed. In the process, 1/2 the population of Southern France was murdered. If the cunning, unscrupulous priests say he was not married, people believe it. Why? It clearly and distinctly known Catholism and Protestantism both always practice a lot of covering up with a view to enslaving people, both body and soul in which in their ignorance people find their own account.

A true spiritualist reads Universal wisdom from all sources!! Materialistic people must first learn to use their own individual brain, instincts and ingenuity before they conquer knowledge and spirituality.

Bantu Kelani.

Haille I -1. The Gospel of Philip:

... the companion of the [...] Mary Magdalene. [...] her more than [...] the disciples, and used to kiss her [...] on her [...]. The rest of [...] ... They said to him, "Why do you love her more than all of us?"
(Elaine Pagels,The Gnostic Gospels, p. 64)

this part of the fragment is usually translated as

... the companion of the [Savior is.] Mary Magdalene. [But Christ loved] her more than [all] the disciples, and used to kiss her [often] on her [mouth]. The rest of [the disciples were offended by it ...] . . . They said to him, "Why do you love her more than all of us?"

another section of the Gospel of Philip which mentions Mary Magdalene as the companion of Jesus

"There were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary, his mother, and her sister, and Magdalene, the one who was called his companion. His sister and his mother and his companion were each a Mary."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Untrue.  Calling him "rabbi" does not mean he WAS a rabbi.  "Rabbi" means "teacher," which he was, a teacher.  In the same sense, I am a minister, but I am not a pastor or priest.

"The reason this unscholarly gossip appeals to people is because it paints the picture of Jeshua as a carnal minded person just like the rest of humanity; it debases the fact that he was of divine nature and had a pre-human existence in the heavens."

Indeed he does have a pre-human existance in the heavens, in fact, the whole story of Jesus is based on astrological allegory.

you know I meant the spiritual heavens and not the starry heavens... :P

"you know I meant the spiritual heavens and not the starry heavens..."

I did not mean to misrepresent what you said. I was just offering a new(old) way of looking at the words which you spoke.

I know, I was just toying with ya   ;)

The stories in the Bible and Yeshua/the Krst character were created by ancient priests/kings to MAKE SECRET (instead of sharing) Universal wisdom....If there is any evidence Yeshua character was a real person, in that case the historical Yeshua was an African Hebrew Israelite, following the Laws of his Ancestors and the Torah! Jewish customs of his day required married Rabbis. Unmarried men were considered a curse to Jewish society. Yeshua would not have had much credibility as a leader had he not been married!! His father Joseph/Yeshua Ben Yusef was careful to perfectly obey the Jewish traditions. Since Jewish culture practiced arranged marriages and early marriage, most biblical scholars would concede Yeshua' father would have performed his parental duties faithfully and arranged a bride for Yeshua at age 16, age when a Jewish boy was marriageable.

When you call Jesus/Yeshua a rabbi, it is IMPORTANT for you to know that it means that Yeshua was Jewish a well-recognized leader/teacher, perfectly obeying the laws of his people!! The marriage of Jesus Christ is a taboo subject because most Christians regard Yeshua sexuality as an impious idea. The Great Master of the Cosmos has purposely given to us humans sexual organs. True spiritualist therefore know sex is not taboo dirty, unclean or immoral but a Sacred, Holy opportunity to merge with another in spiritual and physical ecstasy. It is when we lack Divine consciousness that intimacy is egotistical and immoral. Ponder upon this truth.

Bantu Kelani.

"If there is any evidence Yeshua character was a real person, in that case the historical Yeshua was an African Hebrew Israelite, following the Laws of his Ancestors and the Torah!"

The Yeshua that is part of my faith is a Nazarene, which makes him of Arabic descent - as if that has any relevance to his spirit.

"Unmarried men were considered a curse to Jewish society."

Kinda fits with that whole crucifixion deal I hear so much about, huh?

"When you call Jesus/Yeshua a rabbi, it is IMPORTANT for you to know that it means that Yeshua was Jewish a well-recognized leader/teacher, perfectly obeying the laws of his people!!"

Quite on the contrary he was reviled and hated by "his people."  Except for about 120 of them who were called a cult.  The true Christians, that is.  The later formation of the Christian church bore no resemblance theologically to the true disciples of the Christ.

"The marriage of Jesus Christ is a taboo subject because most Christians regard Yeshua sexuality as an impious idea."

It's a "taboo subject" because there is absolutely no basis for it in the scriptures and the arrangement of marriage had no role in his tasks that he had to perform as a human, namely laying down the law of love and serving as a propitiary sacrifice for mankind.

"True spiritualist therefore know sex is not taboo dirty, unclean or immoral but a Sacred, Holy opportunity to merge with another in spiritual and physical ecstasy."

I never said sex is dirty, unclean, or immoral, but FORNICATION is.  Because Jesus was never married, my point stands.  Besides, as a perfect man he was not hindered by lustful appitites like you and I.

What is the difference between sex and fornification in your gullible and materialistic mind? Yeshua was of Arabic descent?? Your ignorant response is the blind response I expect anyhow..

If you are of European descent I could care less of your poorer theological and cultural beliefs....Let the GOOD and learned of our people to educate our own people! Peace and Pride.

Bantu Kelani.

How did you make the poignant observation that I am gullible and materialistic?  You certainly do not know me well enough to have such insight.  And both are pretty untrue in light of the fact that I own very few things and do not pursue materialistic goals in this life but devote much of my time to the global preaching work that Jesus commanded us to.

Fornication is sex outside of the marriage arrangement and is condemned by the true and living God (Galatians 5:19-22) and those that practice such things "will not inherit God's kingdom."

Last time I checked Nazareth was near the Red Sea, right in the land mass north of Saudi ARABIA.  The fact that you concern yourself with his race only shows how CARNALLY minded YOU are, no?  It's the spirit and soul of Yeshua I embrace, not any physical representation of him.  That'd be a form of idolatry anyway.

To add the matter, a good number of your learned people attend my place of worship and are a member of my faith (Jehovah's Witnesses) and the same holds true on the continent of Africa and the ministry has been expanding and growing there since the early 1950s.

You are and have aligned yourself with blatant IGNORANCE and would dare insinuate that your perspectives are not gullible!! It is time for you to rise above copied theology and support knowledgeable evidence. Yeshua the Hebrew Israelite was born in Bethlehem, and was raised in Nazareth area known as Palestine (modern day Israel) in the Mediterranean region of Southwest Asia or Middle East. Therefore the village area of Nazareth was not located in the Arab states of the southwest area. You have nothing to defend. You just display a narrow perspective. To me it is being "materialistic", lacking recognition and knowledge, being crystallized in your unconscious character, like animals, rocks or stones incapable of becoming conscious on a higher level on your own.

Your speaking of Idol worship is hypocritical, whereas THE BLOOD SACRIFICE OF JESUS is the most "pagan" concept! You slam liberal (but spiritual) physical intimacy calling it "fornication", while anyone should be free to experience sexual ecstasy or mate without anyone sentence or opinion. You Christians do not have all the pieces of Universal Laws and Wisdom, than so too your Holy Bible. The mysteries of the Laws, elements of the Universe are inconceivable in its profundity. The Great Spirit of the Universe transcends mere mortal estimation or consent. Are you really a Son of God? Why do you fail to condemn the Christian deity constantly and persistently portray as white? It is white people who in Hollywood productions like Ben Hur, King of Kings, The 10 Commandments, Jesus of Nazareth and David and Goliath all paint Jesus white!! So why do you point "a carnal" motive if Black people see the opportunity to write and paint the allegorical figure of Yeshua as a Blackman to distance themselves from their former slave holding oppressors. But no that is NOT the kind of Jesus you loves. Jesus is only Jesus, if you whites and nobody else tell him!!!

Go preach to the Negro of the world or the decedents of African slaves void of any spiritual autonomy and decency. For modern day Negroes have lost their indigenous spiritual practices, which have been replaced with chattel slave Christianity that do not even recognize God within ourselves and about us. The silliness you say is appalling for my right mind to bear...

Bantu Kelani.

out_of_zion, you stated in another post:

"The I has never been taught all of the true history of Africans because of exactly what you say, an "erasing" of history; reminds me of Orwell's 1984 quite a bit when I think of it.  All conscious thinkers quickly realize in high school that the history they are taught is terrifically tainted & innacurate.  The sad fact is there is scarcely a source to replace it with facts.  I have a book called Lies My Teacher Told Me written by a man named James W. Loewen and he takes a look at the true history of the Federal Govt and "The Disappearance of the Recent Past."  While it does not focus on black history specifically, it definitely highlights the phenomenon that you're speaking of and I know it exists..."

Although you may believe in a colorless spiritual redemption of mankind, it is important for you to realize the realities of living in a racist system. Your spirituality should not be an excuse to DENY the facts of the physical reality in which you live. I admonish you to look into and learn about African history and the legacy that the oldest people on earth have left for mankind. A good place to start is a book called "Introduction to African Civilizations" by John G. Jackson. Once the I sees what has been stolen juxtaposed with the state of Africa and her people today(at home and abroad), it may give a new perspective of the reality in which you live in.  

BK,

It's a shame your religion is race and your god is skin color.

"For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." -Peter, Acts 10:34,35

And that is the last thing I am saying on the issue of race.  My religion is devoid of racist motives and agenda and is completely severed from the Imperialism of Christedom & Islam (Babylon the Great) that Jehovah God condemns.  As I wrote earlier, I embrace the spirit of Jesus and am not concerned with whether he was black, arab (which I think he was), or white.  The Bible is composed of men of many races.  Job was Oriental (Job 1:4); Moses was black; Joseph & Jesus were Arab; Paul was white/Jewish; etc, etc.  It doesn't matter.  I do not like the way Jesus is portrayed as white either, b/c like you I agree he was NOT white.  The WORST of this is the Mormon church who not only portrays Jesus as white, but the invisible spirit God Yahweh or Jehovah is portrayed as white by them, too, even called "the great white god." By all my estimations he was a speaker of the Aramaic/Hebrew language which causes me to visualize him as a middle eastern man.

Moving on,

\For"ni*cate\, v. i. [L. fornicatus, p. p. of fornicari to fornicate, fr. fornix, -icis, a vault, a brothel in an underground vault.] To commit fornication; to have unlawful sexual intercourse. v. To have sex without being married

source: dictionary.com

It's significant to note here that the Latin word for fornication is derived from the word for "brothel," indicating that there was a strong link between pre-marital sex and prostitution - it was engaging in sexual relations that were viewed as immoral at the time.  The penalty for a Jewish woman that had sex prior to marriage was DEATH.  That was why Joseph was going to break off his engagement with Mary when he found out she was pregnant without making it known to anyone.  She would have been stoned to death.

Look at the exortation found in the scriptures and the strong language used in the warnings to abstain from fornication:

"Flee from fornication. Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but he that practices fornication is sinning against his own body." --1 Corinthians 6:18

"Deaden, therefore, your body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry." --Colossians 3:5

It seems that in your obscure words, you're trying to justify fornicating pleasure sex and indicate that you believe Jehovah actually approves of sex outside of the marriage arrangement, but it's obvious where this will leave you with regard to God's chosen and faithful:

"Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolators and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."  --Revelation 22:15

Of course, since you reject the Bible and do not hold it to be the word of Almighty Jehovah, you've made the choice for yourself to "be free to experience sexual ecstasy or mate without anyone sentence or opinion" which you certainly DO have the freedom to do.  Just don't be surprised if there's consequences for this "freedom."  Freedom isn't freedom if it's bondage to sin.
---
As for the blood of Christ being a pagan concept - that's absurd.  It was not literally the blood that provided salvation, but the giving of his life; and blood is the life force (Genesis 9:4, 16).
---
It's a shame you're so consumed by racial anger and hate that you're not able to see past the atrocities of the past and embrace Christ as your savior, for:

"there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved."  --Acts 4:12

I also think it's rather sad you've CHOSEN to trade your chance at salvation for some free-love "spiritual" (as you call it) hippie sex.  Sex is sacred and should be reserved for a person that you join in a sacred union.

No appologies for the blunt truth of the Bible; it's serving it's purpose as the "sword of the spirit" (Ephesians 6:17).  It's why I've used scriptures.  Reject those words, you're rejecting Jehovah.  Reject my words, and it's a pointless petty argument (see: race discussion above).

"Although you may believe in a colorless spiritual redemption of mankind, it is important for you to realize the realities of living in a racist system."

Iyah - You could not have phrased this more accurately, except for the verb "believe."  I not only "believe" in a colorless spiritual redemption, but am an active part of such a redemption system and love serving Jehovah shoulder to shoulder with people of every race and nationality on the planet.  There may only be 6.4 million of us, but it's a diverse group, 299 languages, almost every land.

Also, have you read the Autobiography of Malcolm X?  I just bought a copy a few weeks ago and am really looking forward to reading it.  I didn't know he had written an autobio.

"It's a shame your religion is race and your god is skin color.  

"For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." -Peter, Acts 10:34,35  

And that is the last thing I am saying on the issue of race.  My religion is devoid of racist motives and agenda and is completely severed from the Imperialism of Christedom & Islam (Babylon the Great) that Jehovah God condemns."

Are you being wise in your own conceit? If you do not know where the sister is coming from, it is wrong to keep puffing yourself up. You cannot seperate yourself from the worldly reality of racism under the guise of a spiritual path. This is what you are doing, though you may not realize it.

I would like to believe I don't have to live with the reality of the new world order(same old bullsh**), but I can't just deny its presence. I need to learn as much as I can about the motives and plans of the powers that be so I don't get ensnared. I and I do not exist in a vacuum, we are shaped by the environment around us just as we consciously and unconsciously shape that environment. Know your enemy, know yourself.

The truth of the matter is she's not even properly representing her own religion by saying things like

"If you are of European descent I could care less of your poorer theological and cultural beliefs...."

Haile Selassie I himself made a call for respect of others' heritage & religions, but she continues to belittle Christianity as a "white man's religion" when in fact Christendom extends over 1/3rd of the world's pop. & as I stated earlier the organization INI belong to is in every country and forms a unified worldwide brotherhood, something no man-made GOVERNMENT has or ever will attain to.

"We know that unity can be and has been attained among men of the most disparate origins, that difference of race, of religion, of culture, of tradition, are no insurmountable obstacles to the coming together of peoples."  -Haile Selassie

Iyah: "You cannot seperate yourself from the worldly reality of racism under the guise of a spiritual path. This is what you are doing, though you may not realize it."

What do INI have to separate from?  The people I associate with are not racist; I am not racist.  The fact that whites in the past did things to the African race that are destible is beyond my control.  Too much is made of the issue of race.  People are people.

But the I is wasting my time reasoning with her, anyway, because she is too prideful to give any thoughtful consideration to anything except her own principles and thought, wildly obvious by the remark, "the silliness you say is appalling for my right mind to bear..."  

This "silliness" was geography and scripture.  I guess I shouldn't have acknowledged that there is a continent north of Africa where Galilee, the area of Yeshua's ministry, lies.

iyah - You write that you are concerned with the motives and plans of the new world order.  I wouldn't let that become a matter of too much concern, iyah.  It's just the blackhead of Babylon's pustule and that it is destined to fall apart at the great battle of Armageddon.  What happens before then is only going to be an inconsequential matter of history for the "great crowd" of survivors "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the Lamb..." (Rev 7:9).  Rather than dwell upon the wickedness of this system, why not motivate your spirit by thinking of the promises JAH has made to the meek "who shall inherit the earth (Mt 5:5)"?

I used the new world odor as an analogy as a possible bridge for you to overstand the race issue. "I need to learn as much as I can about the motives and plans of the powers that be so I don't get ensnared." This is the same as the racism issue.

But, if you think it is just going to go away(as you think racism will, and the two are not seperate), that is your right.  

I will make it abundantly clear my objective is primarily communicating, whether it be written or oral, to Black people (African) to debunk and challenge information such as yours coming from outsiders. I'm not stupid or ignorant. But you seem to have a severe problem of self-denial to notice it. FACTS: Christianity is responsible for a lot of pain and suffering that the African people have had to deal with and endure, from slavery to modern day severe brainwashing of the so-called African man, let's not forget that Judaism and Islam has also contributed heavily to our despair. Remember that this religion that you are so proud of costed millions of African life and countless other cruelty and atrocious acts. Africans are not better today because of these three religions, as a matter of fact we are worse off than we were before the onslaught of these downpressors. The Qu'ran and the Bible teaches about love, peace and the sanctity of the human life, whereas Africans lost countless numbers of innocent people because of your blood filled religions. As an African who know too much the drama of history I cannot separate the criminals and the religion itself, after a while they are all the same one in the other...The hypocrisy of Christians who find it necessary to blame the totalitarian laws and Islamic based criminal system=dictatorship worldwide, behave in the same way and who condemn them. All you uneducated people have only one thing to contribute - make Africans docile and passive while the so-called white Christian rules the world and practice unchristian ways, just as Islam has made the African an Arab.

I rejoice each day because I'm not enslaved to the obtuse doctrines of conqueror priesthood. I have the desire to understand Universal Wisdom with my own intellect, mind and reason. I follow the energy and vibrations of the largest galaxy to the smallest particle, plus humanity all encompassing , our planet, trees and plants, other realms and dimensions including ideals and time. I claim no religion, for I have any conceit to claim a monopoly on truth. The mysteries of life are within myself and into the physical and metaphysical world. Small pieces of Universal Wisdom are to be found in legends throughout the world: Nubia-Khemet esotericism, Mexican Quexalcoatl, the Kaballah, old Greek philosophy, Hinduism-Yoga and Taoism-Buddhism etc. We are all the Universal Laws, without us there is no mental creation of the ALL (God). "The Grand Mysteries" result largely from us. I need no priestly infamy to seek and find the fundamental truth.

To suggest I am intolerant and angry is ludicrous. The mistake your making is thinking that my messages that chronicles our oppression in the past and how it relates to our present day condition is somehow on the opposite end of the spectrum as it relates to philanthropy. The same people as you who charge me are diametrically opposed to Black nationalists or the philosophy in the traditional African religions. Why is that?? Observe how I allow you to push up your egos and agendas on this forum instead of liberating black people from a doctrine that cannot save them. You have the freedom to voice your opinion on this Black forum no matter how detrimental it is to our African honor and traditional spirituality. I therefore fail to see how whether I am bigoted towards Caucasians. If the obvious truth hurts, go on quit reasoning with me. Forwarding and seeking realities is certainly not your priority.


Bantu Kelani.

"FACTS: Christianity is responsible for a lot of pain and suffering that the African people have had to deal with and endure, from slavery to  modern day  severe brainwashing of the so-called African man, let's not forget that Judaism and Islam has also contributed heavily to our despair."

I do not know how many times I have stated it is not CHRISTIANITY but CHRISTENDOM, the world wide mockery of the principles set forth by Christ but never attained to.

You state that you abhor Judiasm then a few lines later say you engage in the Kaballah, the words, wisdom and practices of Jewish mystics.  Which is it?

It just seems with a degree of strinking overtness that you lack the principles that many in religions worldwide make a concerted effort to inculcate, which is the spurring point that drives you to make such heated retorts when you're challenged theologically.  That is to say, you don't seem to be at peace with yourself and your place in this world - at all.

I think there are real problems with the Judeo-Christian construct itself.

Such as 'The Fall of Man' in linear time which makes it necessary for God to separate a piece of himself off to 'redeem' it. By dying hideously.  Our ancestors who originated these stories viewed time as cyclical, with fall and redemption implicit in each moment. A choice. If you literalize what is after all the eternal INTERNAL human struggle, you have this idea that people have to wait until the end of time for 'salvation.'  For some that means you can do any old thing as long as you ask for forgiveness at the last second. For others that means you wait with the 'patience of the Saints' for the end of time and don't do anything to improve the situation. 'Christian activists' like Dr. King were interpreting Jesus according to their own values: Jesus in the Gospels never says much about taking an active stance against injustice. Paul said slaves should obey their masters and everybody should do what the government says.

Also such as the Chosen People/ Promised Land idea. Put a little firepower behind that and voila: the last 2000 years of history.

The literalism of Judaism and then Christianity is a big problem. God lives in a box in the Temple in Jerusalem-literally. What happens when you lose the box and the Temple gets burned down? You have a bereaved people with a pessimistic theology. Waiting for some final dispensation from above.

I don't think it's possible to separate the actions of Christians from their theology. Their theology naturally leads to xenophobia (the Old Testament stories of the conquest and murder of cities down to the last animal is a good example), makes imperialism and racism a natural.
The Christians who have opposed this narrow-mindedness have been cut down by other Christians.

I really do think that the problem boils down to the transposing the earliest cosmic myths dealing with the divine order and the eternal recurring cycles of life onto the idea of linear time, a straight line from lost past to fallen present to imagined future. It is essentially disempowering.
They took stories which illuminated the divine order of the cosmos and turned them into a rigid 'history' which they see as literal. And if any disagree, well, the Chosen People will take care of that, because God is on their side.

Being 'color-blind' is a luxury afforded to the privileged. They're the only ones who seem to think race doesn't matter. This world and what is happening in it matters spiritually. With all that harping on the eternally fallen nature of flesh, the duality of spirit/flesh, it becomes okay to trash the earth, extinct species of animals, extinct dark-skinned people, trash women...this all comes from the Genesis 'dominion over nature.'

That there have always been Christians who dispute this has little to do with the teaching itself. Fortunately, there are larger forces at work than this narrow-minded ideology. I speak as somebody who came through it and out the other side. And where I ended up is with the beginning of all things, in Africa, with our shared human ancestors, who it turns out had a lot of it right.  The origin of every Judeo-Christian story and every Judeo-Christian symbol is there. And it's possible to see where the wrong turn was made.

Rootsie

I can certainly accept the ancient Kaballah as a seldom- unspoiled teachings coming from our highly civilized Black ancestors of the Motherland. The mundane thinking Hebrew of old and the Jew of today lack realization of the profundity of the knowledge of the Kaballah! I have never come across any stories and legends such as those in the Torah, Bible or Qu-ran with so many extravagances, additions, omissions and misconceptions engrafted into them. Therefore the spiritual mystery (if any) of the Old and New Testament remain unsolved without the Khaballah. The Jew and the Gentile alike lack insight to know this one truth.

And in response to you who say that the "Christianity is not Christendom" - I say this: Christiandom includes the Protestant denominations, the Orthodox and Roman Catholics as well even fringe groups like the KKK and Aryan nations. Christiandom is the Christians of today. You are all advocates of Christiandom faith!! It is cowardly to attempt to distance yourself from what is painfully obvious then make the absurd claim that it is CHRISTENDOM that executed Black people denigration, rape and murder. In fact, it is downright insulting to the darker skinned people that we are to continually exclude the past and present. You have no conscience about the practice of injustice, how can you claim to represent the teaching of Yeshua?  You are missing the point deliberately, trying to cover it up with silly (if openly bigoted) insinuations.

Now, lets talk a bit about my mentality...I'm only on spiritual high!! For I'm not a mentally enslaved person, I expelled this plague long ago. I do not hate myself or anyone either. I love the SUN, the moon, my planet, the stars, humanity, my heritage, history, color and gender. The bottom-line is I always venerate the Divinity within me and about me. Those who uphold unprejudiced philosophies I esteem!! For, we must work together in light and freedom to copy the force and intellectual power of the Great Creator.

But you on this other hand are challenging me neither spiritually nor intellectually. I have debated numerous times with delusional and or ignorant people and facts remains. Your (religious) position preserves the status quo of white privilege and black disadvantage, for you do not want Africans to achieve without white authority in order to be play a major part in the civilization of the world to come. Duck and dive if you please, the facts remains.

Bantu Kelani.

"And in response to you who say that the "Christianity is not Christendom" - I say this: Christiandom includes the Protestant denominations, the Orthodox and Roman Catholics as well even fringe groups like the KKK and Aryan nations."

In light of the fact that I am not Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, KKK, or Aryan nation, the statement still doesn't apply.

"You are all advocates of Christiandom faith!!"

Quite on the contrary Christendom hates my faith and persecutes the members of it.  My faith does not adhere to the trinity ("Breaking a part of himself off to save mankind" as rootsie said), an eternal place of torment, or immortal souls. We do not worship Jesus as God, but rather realize he is the Son of God, an entirely separate person.  We do not advocate Christendom's position that "faith alone justifies salvation" nor their organization of having a paid clergy class.  There is scarcely a good thing I can say about Christendom in it's entirety save for except maybe that there are some sincere individuals that are simply misled by the antichrist clergy that they think are sheparding them.

"You have no conscience about the practice of injustice, how can you claim to represent the teaching of Yeshua?"

I really don't know what you are trying to accomplish by saying this.  I treat everyone as my brother and sister.  The bigotry you speak of is clearly a result of your perception and deliberate alienation of people of "European descent."  Any racial issues that lie between you and I individually belong to you because I certainly have no problem getting along with blacks...except racist ones like yourself.

"Your (religious) position preserves the status quo of white privilege and black disadvantage, for you do not want Africans to achieve without white authority in order to be play a major part in the civilization of the world to come."

I cannot help what is reality, that Britain & the US have become the ruling powers that are.  I'm not a government official or politician, so I am just as voiceless as you on the matters we seek to see changed.

But what I can say is that you are so incredibly ignorant of my faith and spirituality that it's not even funny.  The circuit overseer of our circuit that just visited (circuit overseer is one of the "highest" positions; that is, they keep watch over a great number of congregations to ensure that the preaching work runs smoothly) is a black man and there are many blacks in positions of authority within my faith.  I stated earlier that it is a color blind organization and so have others that are "minorities" in this country made the remark.  But you wouldn't know that because you've clumped us in with Babylon and not investigated the matter at all.

Really - it doesn't matter what kind of witness I provide you, b/c you're looking for a reason to discredit it and claim it is racist, prejudice, or some other form of oppressive thought before you even consider MY religious background.  

You've already said as much, that your purpose is to expose Christian thought as foolishness.  So be it.  When the great day of Jehovah comes and you have willingly alligned yourself  against his people  (a multitude of races - including your own) it won't be because you didn't choose that position through your inability to get over your bigotry and inability to adhere to the righteous laws of Jehovah God.

Like I said, Christendom hates my faith, has killed members of our faith, and we're as victimized by their political and financial dominance as anyone else.  Yeshua was hated and he said as much would be expected of his true apostles,

"If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own.  Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.  Bear in mind the word I said to you, A slave is not greater than his master.  If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also." --John 15:19,20

You've chosen not to observe.

out_of_zion

why have you chosen to visit this board? i am just curious.

yes...I have also wondered this...what is your purpose coming to an "African Speaks" board o_o_z?...since clearly you seem to have no visible interests in the rootical heart/nature/culture/spirituality of Africa ...

out_of_zion stated:

"The truth of the matter is she's not even properly representing her own religion by saying things like  

"If you are of European descent I could care less of your poorer theological and cultural beliefs...."

The comment in full was this: "If you are of European descent I could care less of your poorer theological and cultural beliefs....Let the GOOD and learned of our people to educate our own people!"  

As Rastafari is rooted in Africa, and African liberation, it is up to Africans to define for themselves what Rastafari is about . . .  this is a FUNDAMENTAL of self-determination. For you to come and say she misrepresents Rastafari is a case and point of you UNCONSCIOUSLY claiming a superior role of dictating to an AFRICAN what the AFRICAN'S "religion" is all about. This is what I have alluded to before(which you did not OVERstand) about you UNCONSCIOUSLY playing the Roman/Babylon superiority game although you claim otherwise.

http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=rb;action=display;num=1071242246;start=16#16
"It would be good for the I to OVERSTAND that even though you think that you espouse a rather universal doctrine of redemption, the doctrine you espouse has been colored by the conquesting fantasies of the originators of the Roman church who used the religion as a tool of unifying peoples into a vast empire. Christ principles from other cultures do not hold this same type of spin to them. You could very well be unconsciously propogating that which you SEEMINGLY lash out against the most(Babylonian/Roman imperialism)."

Your UNCONSCIOUS superiority complex is the legacy of the Christian religion and YOU TOO HAVE SHOWN WITHOUT A DOUBT through your reasoning that you possess this same MINDSET.

I applaud your efforts to try to be a bit more broad-minded in your definition of who are going to be "saved" when the redemption comes(righteous people of all faiths who hold fast to the Christ principle). Other than that though, there is much for you to learn if you wish to. If not, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

"We know that unity can be and has been attained among men of the most disparate origins, that difference of race, of religion, of culture, of tradition, are no insurmountable obstacles to the coming together of peoples."  -Haile Selassie"

Conscious brethren (Iyah360, Tracey) spend some time discussing racial politics with the majority of whites and see them stew in their own rank hypocrisy every time. It's just a cheap source of entertainment for me now. [smiley=afro.gif]

They don't want to learn. No, they don't want to hear anything that doesn't conform to their reality. So when you hit them with facts, they ignore them. When you use logic, they answer with illogical assertions....However, I feel this communication has been highly beneficial to the member out_of_zion, he has learned a lot.  

B.K

Actually Tracey - that is why I came to this board.  I had read bits of the history of the Rastafari movement but figured the best way to actually learn of the movement and gain a comprehension of just what its followers believe would be to read FIRSTHAND from believers themselves.  And yes, as BK said, I have learned a lot...Most of what I have learned, I have yet to learn (if that makes any sense) b/c I still have to print and read a bunch of info that Iyah linked me to.  It may take a while for me to sort through all of it Iyah b/c I have a heavy courseload this term...but I will get to it - eventually.

This thread is a poor representation of my presence & purpose on this board because it turned confrontational.  I responded in strong disagreement to the topic of Jesus having a wife because it is an utter load of unscholarly nonsense brought on by occultists such as the Mormon faith (founded by Joseph Smith who was a freemason) and Gnostics gospels to further their agenda of making Yeshua appear as though he was fleshly corrupt.  If that was the case, it would invalidate the ransom sacrifice because it required that he prove faithful in each and every regard.

I don't really understand what is expected from me in the area of "racial politics."  I'm a 22 year old white man who's got along with blacks, whites, latinos, asians, whatever, and has never thought much more of the matter.  As I wrote in a previous post, I think too much is made of the race issue.  If you want racism to disappear the best way is to stop pressing the issue and allow the process of time to allieviate matters.  What more do you expect really?  Of course I do not know every bit of African history; neither do most Africans.  Most whites don't know European history, nor American history.  People are so overly concerned with materialism and are so solical that they seldom look past the drudgery of their daily lives.  

I came to this website to be around people who do.  I go to the Kingdom hall to be around people who do - though of the same faith as I.  This world is nearly soulless and people live with low morals or no morals at all.  

HOWEVER, I can't say that I've gained a lot from our exchange, BK.  You continue to fireback on how you are disgusted by my beliefs (despite not really knowing much about them) and don't really expound much at all about your theology or philosophy, merely telling me that is composed of a buffet of practices, kind of a pick and choose what looks appealing casserole of religion...Such an attitude towards spirituality is increasingly common in this communication age, where people from all over the world interact with one another on a level far greater than in times past, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is any more beneficial than the restricted spirituality of any one given religion.  Do you not agree with that statement?

It seems as though you're almost afraid to make a stand for any one set of beliefs, so you just adopt a slew of them and make no stand at all (except on the racial front of course).

out_of_zion,

please read: http://www.rastaspeaks.com/Rasta/whitesonracism.html

just as you have accused BK of not fully understanding your belief system before attacking them, you too are guilty of this same thing when you say:

"It seems as though you're almost afraid to make a stand for any one set of beliefs, so you just adopt a slew of them and make no stand at all (except on the racial front of course)."

to this I would have you check this quote:

". . . In the mystic traditions of the different religions we have a remarkable unity of spirit. Whatever religion they may profess, they are spiritual kinsmen. While the different religions in their historic forms bind us to limited groups and militate against the development of loyalty to the world community, the mystics have already stood for the fellowship of humanity...in harmony with the spirit of the mystics of ages gone by. . . " - Haile Selassie

Furthermore, BK elaborated that "Small pieces of Universal Wisdom are to be found in legends throughout the world: Nubia-Khemet esotericism, Mexican Quexalcoatl, the Kaballah, old Greek philosophy, Hinduism-Yoga and Taoism-Buddhism etc."

Africa stands at THE ROOT and FOUNDATION of this "Universal Wisdom" . . . check the links i have given to you as a start. "Mexican Quexalcoatl, the Kaballah, old Greek philosophy, Hinduism-Yoga and Taoism-Buddhism" all have their origins in Africa, although brought into different cultural contexts, the basis for these things can be found in Africa. The same is true for Judaism and Christianity. There is indeed a "natural mystic" which is like a hidden thread.  BEHIND what may appear to you as a "hodgepodge of diverging faiths" is actually a unity which you cannot see because you are ignorant to the origins which bind them.

Ethiopia is the cradle of mankind. Rastafari is the tapline to the root.

Also, PLEASE do not make the assumption that since one sees the unity in the manifestations, that one is CONDONING the various manifestations or the ways that they have been abused throughout history.

How does Babylon fit into the schematics with regard to Ethopia?  My understanding was always that it was the Babylonians and Sumerians that were responsible for the vast majority of the world religions, from those typically thought of as Western (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) to the fundamentals of Eastern thought and martial arts.

Did a undercurrent of Ethopian mythology/theology/spirituality migrate northward to Babylon or did the Babylonian influences seep southward?  How would you be able to accurately distinguish which pattern occured?  

Well the Sumerian and Egyptian 'high civilizations' are dated nearly identical, but it is becoming clear to scholars unblinded by the racism of the last 300 years that Egypt is far older.  Europeans assumed the Sumerians came first because they were inventing racism at the time and could not give credence to the idea that Africa is the source. It is obvious that the sources of the Egyptian civilization come from the interior of Africa. The Kush/Ethiopian empire comes much later.

Out-of-Zion
   Statements like 'I can't help what whites did in the past' and 'just wait for racism to wither away' and 'I get along well with Blacks, just not racist ones' (I'm paraphrasing)demonstrate total willful ignorance of what is going on in the world today.
  THE PAST????????? WHAT ABOUT RIGHT NOW????????
   JUST WAIT FOR RACISM TO GO AWAY???? WHEN IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN, WHEN "JESUS" COMES FROM THE CLOUDS IN A CHARIOT OR SOME SUCH NONSENSE???
   ARE "RACIST BLACKS" DENYING YOU EMPLOYMENT, FOOD, CLOTHING AND HEALTHCARE, LOCKING YOU UP, SHOOTING YOU IN THE BACK AND GETTING AWAY WITH IT??? IF NOT, HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY CALLING THEIR *JUSTIFIED SUSPICION* OF WHITE PEOPLES' MOTIVES BY THE SAME WORD USED TO DESCRIBE THE ABOVE ACTS COMMITTED ON BLACK PEOPLE ("RACISM"?)
  Sorry to shout as it were, but come on man. What world are you living in?
   Anyway you're free to wait for your savior to come from the sky and solve everything, you will be waiting forever and the more you (or anyone) passively wait, and the less action you take, the WORSE things will become over time, not better.
   The Battle of Armageddon is right here, right now.
    The type of 'Christian' I respect is people like dem man in Central America who read the Bible and saw that Jah or Jesus or whoever was telling them to go up in the hills with guns and fight for the liberation of their people from the everyday terrorist atrocities committed by their U.S.-backed government.
   Or like a MLK kind of Christian, I'm not saying you have to use physical weapons, but unless you're actively engaged in resisiting against this system, or at least preparing yourself to do so, then you implicitly support the system.
   If your Jesus is gonna be coming from the sky anyway, don't you think he'd be more pleased to find you engaged in trying to right some of the wrongs here on earth, than just passively waiting for him to come and solve everything?
  Anyway keep on waiting for Big Daddy to save you if that's your bag.
  Lastly, if B.K. is such a virulent "racist" don't you think she'd have banned you and other all-but-clueless white people from this site already?
  I have no animosity towards you as I don't know you. But many of your statements in trying to be 'profound' are just plain silly to me, and reveal that you have not even attempted to analyze your own self and see how it may have been shaped at least partially by the 'babylonian pustule' you claim to detest so much.

   

Oh one more thing Out_of_Zion:
   I have no idea whether or not "Jesus" married, had sex or whatever. But if he did, why on earth would this mean he was "less pure"? What is "impure" about sex and marriage?
   The idea that sex is "bad" and that we are "born in sin" is one of the most pernicious and destructive notions in the world, it is the root cause of things like all them child-molesting priests.

"Or like a MLK kind of Christian, I'm not saying you have to use physical weapons, but unless you're actively engaged in resisiting against this system, or at least preparing yourself to do so, then you implicitly support the system.
   If your Jesus is gonna be coming from the sky anyway, don't you think he'd be more pleased to find you engaged in trying to right some of the wrongs here on earth, than just passively waiting for him to come and solve everything?"

I don't expect Jesus to be "coming from the sky."  That's symbolism, evidenced by the fact he said he would be "seen no more" to his disciples.  His "coming," is referred to in the Greek by the word parousia, that he'd be making an inspection in the Lord's day which we believe began in 1914 based on the prophecy in Daniel of Nebuchadezar's dream of the tree 7x over...7 * 360 days in prophetic year + 607 BCE destruction of Jerusalem + no zero year (+1) = 1914.  The ultimate redemption we await is the "Great day of Jehovah," when he will destroy the wicked using numerous weapons, including them destroying themselves (as it is already occuring on some level).
----
Sex outside marriage was punishable by STONING TO DEATH under Jewish law; Jesus was a Jew.  They're not my laws and principles - they are those of Jehovah God.  Certainly sex in and of itself is not dirty, he told Adam and Eva to "go forth and be fruitful," which involves more than a little sex   [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]  HAR HAR.  
---
Stepping away from the religion and touching back on the topic of the racism:

I see it.
I know of it.
I don't agree with it.
I really don't know what more you expect from the people of my generation that are a part of the overturn and improvement that IS happening - just not fast enough.  And I do think that, at least in this country, things are far better when we have a Democrat in office.  Bush is a racist bigot and I wouldn't mind seeing him assassinated.  But that's an entirely different topic.  He's out fighting the war for the average idiot right now so he can have a legacy throughout Texas and amongst the narrow minded Christian fundamentalist hatred-filled bigots all through the south --- which, by the way, are around where I live.

They not only are racist, but as I mention they hate Jehovah's Witnesses, too.  So I experience prejudice.  It's just prejudice against religion instead of race.  NOW NOTE, I am not saying it is equivalent to what many blacks incur in terms of social injustice, but I can empathsize, at least on some levels.

gman:

The notion that sex outside of legal institution of marriage is impure and that sex inside marriage is pure, borders on being ludicrous. In my opinion, the legal institution of marriage can never consecrate any relationship or interaction that may exist.Ignorance about the nature of human sexuality will continue to exist once individuals continue leave their education in the hands of the fools.

Could you be more confused? Your posts are a bit untaught, don't you think?






I also find it interesting that you are able to equalize the horrendous behavior of white institutions and white individuals with incidences of Christians' reactionary prejudice. Do you think it's "ok" to have an excuse to be delusionist confined in your religion?  

Bantu Kelani.

SMILE....welcome to the threshing board!... I love it..

Out_of_Zion....PAY ATTENTION..

Here is a wonderful opportunity to look at yourself IF you are willing. One of the great things about this board is being able to hold one's views up to the light and have them examined by many different angles of light...each coming from a different spectrum yet each a radiant particle from the same beam of light...are ya with me?

I am always overjoyed when I observe youthmen try to articulate their budding views. However, one thing I have also noticed is that many youth are usually FULL of themselves, and take a little knowledge and run like the wind with it.. then try to hammer their knewly attained viewpoints like a sledge hammer (with authority) without first having the direct experience to know what the heck they're talking about..example: how can you speak authoritativly about sex? Have you had the qualitative experience to know what you are speaking about? Hence, loads of silly comments can be ripped, as they speak from mere pontification and from a limited experience. Typically, youth often do NOT take the time to think before they speak but rather go for trying to woo an audience in order to support their newly-formed ideals.

You are a student...that is good. The world holds great lessons if you are willing to step ouside the box and examine your views in light of ALL that is. When your defenses rise...and they will...pay attention...there is so much to learn from those who have come before, and from what has contributed to where you, and everyone else IS today. That's why it is vital to know your racial identity and how that has contributed to what is going on in the world today. You cannot disassociate yourself, try as you may, from the people who birthed you and brought you into existance. There is a history there that now provides you with a certain responsibility to act from the collective conscious given from what you know and have experienced..and what you will DO with what you are willing to learn and become aware of.

welcome to the threshing board!

out_of_zion:

take this opportunity to learn(if you wish). this is one of the rare places where you will get this kind of education.

"How does Babylon fit into the schematics with regard to Ethopia?  My understanding was always that it was the Babylonians and Sumerians that were responsible for the vast majority of the world religions, from those typically thought of as Western (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) to the fundamentals of Eastern thought and martial arts.

Did a undercurrent of Ethopian mythology/theology/spirituality migrate northward to Babylon or did the Babylonian influences seep southward?  How would you be able to accurately distinguish which pattern occured?"


Modern Ethiopia is very small compared to ancient Ethiopia. Modern Ethiopia is actually the remnant of the more modern Abysinnian empire.

"In modern geography the name Ethiopia is confined to the country known as Abyssinia, an extensive territory in East Africa. In ancient times Ethiopia extended over vast domains in both Africa and Asia. "It seems certain," declares Sir E. A. Wallis Budge, "that classical historians and geographers called the whole region from India to Egypt, both countries inclusive, by the name of Ethiopia, and in consequence they regarded all the dark-skinned and black peoples who inhabited it as Ethiopians. Mention is made of Eastern and Western Ethiopians and it is probable that the Easterners were Asiatics and the Westerners Africans." (History of Ethiopia, Vol. I., Preface, by Sir E. A. Wallis Budge.) In addition Budge notes that, "Homer and Herodotus call all the peoples of the Sudan, Egypt, Arabia, Palestine and Western Asia and India Ethiopians." (Ibid., p. 2.) Herodotus wrote in his celebrated History that both the Western Ethiopians, who lived in Africa, and the Eastern Ethiopians who dwelled in India, were black in complexion, but that the Africans had curly hair, while the Indians were straight-haired. (The aboriginal black inhabitants of India are generally referred to as the Dravidians, of whom more will be said as we proceed.) Another classical historian who wrote about the Ethiopians was Strabo, from whom we quote the following: "I assert that the ancient Greeks, in the same way as they classed all the northern nations with which they were familiar as Scythians, etc., so, I affirm, they designated as Ethiopia the whole of the southern countries toward the ocean." Strabo adds that "if the moderns have confined the appellation Ethiopians to those only who dwell near Egypt, this must not be allowed to interfere with the meaning of the ancients." Ephorus says that: "The Ethiopians were considered as occupying all the south coasts of both Asia and Africa," and adds that "this is an ancient opinion of the of the Greeks." Then we have the view of Stephanus of Byzantium, that: "Ethiopia was the first established country on earth; and the Ethiopians were the first who introduced the worship of the gods, and who established laws." The vestiges of this early civilization have been found in Nubia, the Egyptian Sudan, West Africa, Egypt, Mashonaland, India, Persia, Mesopotamia, Arabia, South America, Central America, Mexico, and the United States."
. . .

"Professor George Rawlinson, in his essay On the Ethnic Affinities of the Races of Western Asia, which directs our attention to: "the uniform voice of primitive antiquity, which spoke of the Ethiopians as a single race, dwelling along the shores of the Southern Ocean from India to the Pillars of Hercules." (Herodotus, Vol. I., Book. I., Appendix, Essay XI., Section-5.) Rawlinson adds an explanatory note to this section of his essay, which we here reproduce: "Recent linguistic discovery tends to show that a Cushite or Ethiopian race did in the earliest times extend itself along the shores of the Southern Ocean from Abyssinia to India. The whole peninsula of India was peopled by a race of their character before the influx of the Aryans; it extended from the Indus along the seacoast through the modern Beluchistan and Kerman, which was the proper country of the Asiatic Ethiopians; the cities on the northern shores of the Persian Gulf are shown by the brick inscriptions found among their ruins to have belonged to this race; it was dominant in Susiana and Babylonia, until overpowered in the one country by Aryan, in the other by Semitic intrusion; it can be traced both by dialect and tradition throughout the whole south coast of the Arabian peninsula.""
http://www.nbufront.org/html/MastersMuseums/JGJackson/EthiopiaOriginOfCivilization.html

The nile river flows from south to north. Upper Egypt is actually in the south and Lower Egypt in the North. The ancient cultures and peoples of inner Africa are the progenitors of the Egyptian civilization. The ideas and people from inner Africa followed the path of the nile and established the beginnings of what would evolve and become the high civilization of pre-dynastic and dynastic ancient Egypt.

"You cannot disassociate yourself, try as you may, from the people who birthed you and brought you into existance."

That's a very accurate way of stating it.  My genetic history is mainly Polish and Cherokee (odd mix, I suppose), but I feel completely detatched from both lineages, merely as though I was "brought into existence" by my mom and dad who in turn would probably say the same about the matter.  In this melting pot of world civilizations, the USA, many of us have completely lost connection with our genetic & ancestral roots.  It's just a sad reality.

There is no such thing as spiritual development without examination of our genetic ancestral roots.

greetings to all

Well this is a possibility of the church tampering with the bible.
The Romans did interfere with the bible to fit their religious beliefs. Jesus came to tell the truth about the Most High. Jesus was pure love, there could of been a possibility that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. H.I.M. Selassie I said we should read the bible because there is some truth in it.  He didn't say everything was true. So have a open mind in life.
Dont be quick to say something is false, when you were not even there. You sound like you are cruxifing one for having an open thought, it seems like thats the same thing that happen to Jesus, because he was teaching about love, not some laws set by religion.  Jesus said "I am the word."  That means to be the word , not read it.
Jah bless
Blessings flow

If as you all have said that Christianity is a white mans religion then why is it that they are killing one another as example in America they took prayers and the ten commandments out of school, and mentioning God in public places like at work can get you suied, anything that have God in it they want to do away with it, If Christianity is a Eroupean religion then why is it that they persecuted so many Christians in Rome feeding them to wild beast like lions, burning them alive in hot oil, If Christianity is a white mans religion why did the white people from Rome crucified Christ, Why are Christians being killed and some being put into slavery in Africa Sudan by their own black people, China Christians being killed, Russia, America law suits for even wearing a cross at work.
The problem in every religion and in every society is extremist, fanatics, people who go to the extreme, but are you going to blame everyone who are Christians for their foolish behavior like the kkk and other groups, It was the Church who help to get rid of Slavery.
The Catholic church did much to hurt Christianity with their wrong beliefs, and practices, and this is why the Christian church have seperated themselves from the Roman Church.
Jesus who is God as Jesus said I and the Father are one and the same, also in the very first book of the bible in Genisis 1:26 God said let us make man (the Trinity).
Jesus lived and taught nothing but love and peace Jesus went around teaching about God, forgiveness, love, mercy.
Jesus went around healing sick people and loving them enough to change their thinking and their lives from sin to a fruitfull life of love and forgiveness, Jesus change their way of thinking about God that they may see Gods love in His son John 3:16 says That God so love the world, that He give His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
What I have seen in this Reasoning Forum is ignorants to the real truth (Jesus) as God, I see where people can worship nature and ancestors this is wrong and a great sin, I see here that people can worship themselves the inner man to fine wisdom, and whatever other foolishness they can believe in to deny God existence as though you can fine wisdom in trees and nature, and animals, moon, the sun, and so much other foolishness. You say that the white man made changes in the bible, but yet you all are saying things that are not even in the bible show me where is it that Jesus was married? the only place you will find such lies is in made up stories and lies in books that deny God, Creation and Gods words as true. Most of the world are doing the same denying God and His words, but all this is written in Scriptures in the last days before Christ returns that it might be fulfilled. you all are adding and changing God words to fit your ungodly lifestyles.
I have seen where the blind have led the blind in this forum the Ancestors were blind to the truth in (God), and have led you all who are blind to believe in them, and so I have tried to bring light into this dark forum that people may see the truth before its to late. For Christ will come back in the clouds, and some will go with Him to everlasting joy, and others to everlasting shame for they have denied the truth in Christ, and  into a fiery pit of judgement and hell. Wake up people, wake up for all that is written in the scriptures are coming to pass on the earth.
You all can write against this message, but as for me I will see you all at the time appointed at the judgement of  Christ, but even so death comes to all of us, and we will face Him to everlasting Joy, or into everlasting shame and Hell. Peace I leave with you all who have come out from this ancestor worship of self, nature, and all other forms of idol worship to deny the true God our Lord Jesus Christ for He is God, out of Zion Jesus is God the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit to deny this is to deny the truth For Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life. Come out of that cult call Jehovah wittness.
People add a hundred years to your life; where will you be?
Every material thing we see like cars, watches, houses were made by men, but yet the earth, man and the heavens was a big bang called evolution how stupid. Can there be creation without a creator? The Heavens and the Earth shows the glory of Gods hand work.

Peace Be Unto All.actually,not to stray from de subject,but you christians are NOT the same as the persecuted christians,for they were called the "little fishes"and represented the Piscean age,but this Mainline Paulianity lost its Root,InI Rasta found and Know from whence it came!Namaste

Essene Rasta

IlovGod,

I'd first like to applaud you for pointing out a very valid fact, that whites persecute whites and blacks persecute blacks when it comes to Christianity.  Jesus did say to his followers "I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you." -John 15:19

It's common for people these days to believe the trinity because of the fact that Jehovah's name has been removed from the Bible 7,311 and replaced by "LORD," which you refer to as the trinity.  Do consider though that the word "trinity" appears in the bible a total of zero times and that not one apostle wrote of it, nor did Paul.  It wasn't even a part of the "Christian" faith until 325 AD when Christianity became corrupt by becoming a religion at the council of Niscea.  The one person who opposed the idea of the trinity, Arius, was slugged in the face and all the others fled the meeting screaming and plugging their ears because he (Arius) was a so-called heretic.  I'm not going to get dogmatic and write a treatise on the trinity here for you because I've already done that before on this site and most trinitarians don't really have much regard for scriptures because the trinity itself is not scripturally based.  Jesus said that such things would happen though at Matthew 15:9, "It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, because they teach the commandments of men as doctrines."

Here's a link to expose the trinity as the construed theological nonsense it is:
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_03.htm

I also see that you, like many, refer to Jehovah's organization as a cult.  You may be interested to know that those first century disciples you spoke of that were thrown to the lions in the coloseum were also called a cult and that the definition of a cult is "a system or community of religious and ritual worship, especially one focusing upon a single diety or spirit."  Since we profess to follow our King and Redeemer Jesus Christ, we would indeed in that sense be a cult.  So would every other sect in Christendom.

Prayerfully consider these scriptures, though, and look at how Jehovah's Witnesses are faithfully fulfilling them.  We know that the ENTIRE Bible is "inspired of God, and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight..." -2 Timothy 3:16.  So do not make the mistake that exortations and principles of worship from Jehovah God in the Hebrew scriptures are not equally as valid today (with the exception of the Law Code).

1) God prohibits the use of images, icons, statues in worship
"And you must take good care of your souls, because you did not see any form on the day of Jehovah speaking to you in Horeb out of the middle of the fire, that you may not act ruiniously and may not make for yourselves a carved image, the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female, the representation of any beast that is in the earth, the representation of any winged bird of the heavens, the representation of anything moving on the ground, the representation of any fish that is in the waters under the earth; and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow to them and serve them, which Jehovah God has apportioned to all the people under the heavens." -Dueteronomy 4:15-19

Compare this scripture with the "Christian" use of the cross, "Jesus fish," doves on license plates to represent some Christian-idea.  Clearly God does not approve of this.

2) True Christians will not be militaristic or nationalistic
"Then Jesus said to him: 'Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.'" -Matthew 26:52

Does your church support politicians?  Many churches do.  Many feel that God blesses George W. Bush in his decision to go to war against countries that they consider "evil."  This is clearly un-Christ like behavior.
See also: 2 Timothy 2:23,24 and Isaiah 2:2-4

3) The soul dies
"For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality.  As the one dies, so the other dies; so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity.  All are going to one place.  They have come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust." -Ecclesiastes 3:19,20
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the rememberance of thehas been forgotten.  All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going." -Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
"Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs.  His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.

So we clearly see that Jehovah tells us after we die we do not go on to live in a spirit realm, but rather that we simply cease to exist.  Does your church teach that all the dead live on in heaven?  If so, these must be difficult scriptures to read and maintain any true semblance of true faith.

4) True Christians are to remain separate from worldly engagements and political activism
"If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own.  Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you."

Jesus and his disciples preached the Kingdom and saught first the kingdom, maintaining nuetrality towards the ruling governments at that time.  Do you involve yourself with politics or keep in mind that God is setting up a government that will "crush and put an end to all these kingdoms" that are currently failing so miserably today?

5) Unrepentant sinners should not be a part of the congregation
"Do not be misled!  Bad associations spoil useful habits.  Wake up to soberness in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some are without knowledge of God.  I am speaking to move you to shame." -1 Corinthians 15:33,34
"What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingom?  Do not be misled.  Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulturers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom." 1 Corinthians 6:9,10
"In my letter I wrote you to QUIT MIXING COMPANY with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters." -1 Corinthians 5:9

Is your church filled with unrepentant and willful sinners?  Surely Jehovah and Jesus could not bless a congregation that is composed of people that only do lip service to him when they congregate together only to disperse into the sinful world and be a partner to its corruption.  Those that refuse to conform their lives to the Way should not be allowed to contaminate those that will.

6) Jehovah names the true faith
"You are my witnesses,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One.  Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.  I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior." -Isaiah 43:10,11
"Symeon has related throughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name...in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all nations, people who are called by his name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, known from old." -Acts 15:14,17,18

Does your church know and use God's name, be it in the form Je-ho-vah, Yah-weh, or Ye-ho-wah?  Jehovah makes it known that his followers would do this and declare abroad the excellencies of his name.

7) Jehovah God's true worshippers will have unity
"Now I exort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought." -1 Corinthians 1:10
"One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons, who is over all and through all and in all." -Ephesians 4:4-6

I have yet to find an "Christian" faith that is not split into sects. Each faith is split in to many denominations split into subdenominations and so on and on and they all conflict with one another, far from being "united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."  Jehovah God's faithful witnesses have a unity throughout the congregation that was only found in the first century congregations and throughout the witnesses down through the centuries.  Jesus said wisdom is proved righteous by its works, and surely a unified organization is proof positive of Jehovah's blessing contrasted with the awful conflict of Christendom, which will undoubtedly destroy itself, as they have throughout time, "Christian" vs. "Christian"

Out of zion: First I must say that you are right the word Trinity is not in the bible, but do you have to see the word to believe it?
Jesus said that He is God, Jesus said that I and the Father are one and the same, in Revelation 1:8 Jesus said that I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Jesus said He is the Almighty, Jehoviah God. God said in Genesis 1:26 Let us make man, Jesus said (I AM); the word in which we get the verb 'to be' YAHWEH, so We see the trinity in Gods words over and over in scriptures.
Many people today who call themselves christian are not true christians until their lives are lived as those who were killed for their faith, who lived their lives in Christ likeness, in love, forgiveness, heavenly minded, not in material things, or places, for thoses who love the world the love of God is not in him.
We live by the Grace of God to eternal life, not by works least any man should boast. How will you know how much good works you have done to enter into heaven?
We are save by what Jesus have done on the Cross as we confess our sins and ask Christ into our lives this gets us into a right relationship with God which was lost by Adam and Eve sin, but once we are save we are called to do Good works not to be save, because we are already, but to live lives as Christ lived on this earth, and we do this not by the flesh, but by the Holy Spirit that lives in us.
As is written in the Commandment we are not to make images of things in heaven above or things on the earth, nor bow down and worship them. this is were we differ from the catholic church and in many other areas for the catholic church have also persecuted christians.
should christian be involve in politics? yes if you have no christians voting for a person who wants to stop abortion then it will never stop, because we have other people who will vote to keep abortion legal, but if we vote for people who holds to our belief we should not be silent. We still live in this world and our opinions and votes should be heard it may make a difference.

I'm glad you have a zeal for God, but much of what you say is not supported by the scriptures. Further, you did not even begin to address the 7 factors I laid out very clearly and boldly that show the erring ways of Babylonian Christendom.  Remember what Babel means:  confusion.  You see nothing but confusion in Christendom and it fails to adhere to the scriptures as I have highlighted above.  

You ask me, do I have to see a teaching in the scriptures before I'll believe it?  You better believe it!  Consider the account in Acts 17 where Paul comes to preach to the Christians in Berea.  They were unwilling to listen to PAUL (!)  until he used PROOF from the scriptures to back and support what he said.  Do you think I would treat your words any differently?  The only authority we have is God's word, the scriptures.

"Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."  -Acts 17:11

As Jehovah's faithful and true witnesses we always use scriptures when teaching Bible truths.  You cannot simply tell someone "God is a trinity" or any other teaching without supporting it by scriptures or else you are teaching YOUR theology and not God's.  For instance, you type "Jesus said that he is God."  Nowhere in the scriptures is that so!  

Quite on the contrary, when you take scriptures at face value as they were really written - with Jehovah's name in the place it should be - Jesus made it abundantly clear that he was not God.  He was the Son of God.

Consider these scriptures:
"Jesus said to them: 'If God were your father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here.  Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.  Why is it you do not know what I am speaking?  Because you cannot listen to my word." -John 8:42,43

"because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." -John 12:49

"You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you.  If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am." -John 14:28

All three of these scriptures in the gospel of John make it definitively clear that Jesus is subject to Jehovah God, the creator of all.  

The scripture you listed from Revelation 1:8, the Alpha and Omega - look back in your Bible.  The word Lord is in all caps, LORD, which indicates that originally the tetragrammaton, YHWH, was there, and it is talking about Jehovah, not Jesus.  With the proper word in place of Lord, let the impact of the pure scripture touch your heart,

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says Jehovah God, 'the one who was and the one who is coming, the Almighty."

And only Jehovah is the Almighty God, "El Shaddai" in Hebrew, at Genesis 17:1.  Jesus Christ is not referred to as "El Shaddai" like his Father, but is instead called "El Gibbohr" at Isaiah 9:6 when they are prophetically referring to him.  El Gibbohr means "Mighty God."

Consider also Psalm 83:18,
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth."

Quote:
"We live by the Grace of God to eternal life, not by works least any man should boast. How will you know how much good works you have done to enter into heaven?"

I do agree that salvation comes through grace, but what justifies our salvation?  Two things.  Faith AND works.  I do not know where you are extracting these things from the previous post of mine because I do not believe that we need a certain number of good works to "enter heaven" - or the "Kingdom of God" to be far more accurate on the matter.  Certainly, though, if we are true Christians are faith will be shown positive by our works.  It's a sharp contrast from the "once saved, always saved" crowd who proceeds to "[turn] the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and [prove] false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 4)

Do consider this scripture from James though that indicates that we do need works to make our faith ALIVE:

"But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is inactive?  Was not Abraham declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?  You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected." -James 2:19-22

"You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone...as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." -James 2:24,26

What works should one focus upon?  Jesus did command a certain work from each and every one of his followers:

"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.  And look!  I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."  -Matthew 28:19,20

So we're commanded by Jesus in a nutshell to do two things:
1) Love God & our neighbor with our whole heart, our whole soul, and our whole mind. (Matthew 22:37-40)
2) Preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of God (Mt 28:19,20 / Mt 24:14)

Quote:
"should christian be involve in politics? yes if you have no christians voting for a person who wants to stop abortion then it will never stop, because we have other people who will vote to keep abortion legal, but if we vote for people who holds to our belief we should not be silent. We still live in this world and our opinions and votes should be heard it may make a difference."

Again, here, you're preaching to me from your own mind and not from the Bible.  I do sympathsize with your feelings on abortion and that's wonderful you feel that way, but who rules this world, I ask you?  

"The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." - 1 John 5:19

Your intentions are noble, but Jesus taught that we should be NO PART of this world.  It's tragic that babies are murdered before they are born, but do you really think that voting for politicians that are USING YOU FOR VOTES is really going to change that?  If abortion ever were made illegal, and it won't be as long as we live in Satan's system of things, people would still abort their babies illegally, just as they have all throughout time.

I encourage you to reflect upon the promises Jehovah makes to us, of ushering in "a new heavens and a new earth" (2 Peter 3:13).  While it will not cure the problems that afflict us now, the hope is an anchor for our souls, our hearts, and our minds.   May Jehovah bless you.

Out of zion:
Jehovah's witnesses and their view of Jesus Christ

What exactly is their view of Jesus Christ?

1. The Jesus that Jehovah's witnesses preach is vastly different from the Jesus in the bible. Jehovah's regard Jesus as the first and only being directly created by Jehovah God (John 1:1-3). They believe that Jehovah God has never had any personal contact with creation, but was indirectly responsible for the creation of all beings by empowering Jesus to bring the physical universe into existence. It's interesting to note that the Gnostics-who were denounced by the early church-held strikingly similar views.
Jehovah;s witnesses as yourself deny that Jesus is God Almighty read Phil.2:6-7) you'll claim that Jesus is not all powerful, He is not all knowing, and that He is not all present. Curiously enough, however, they deny these same attributes about their own Jehovah God!

2. Jehovah's Witnesses deny that man has a soul or spirit that has conscious existence after death. What does the bible say?
To Jehovah's the word "soul" is interchangeable with the word "human" In other words, they dont believe that humans possess souls which are seperate and distinct from the body; rather, Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that humans are souls! This explains why Jehovah's Witnesses believe that a person ceases to exist upon death.
The Bible, however, makes it clear that everyone has an inner being which survives after physical death. Matthew 10:28 demonstrates that scriptures distinguishes the soul from the body, thereby disproving what Jehovah's Witnesses are clearly teaching. It reads: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul" (NIV).
John 11:26 states that whoever believe in Jesus will never die, which explains Paul's statement in Romans 8:38 that not even death can seperate us from God's love. Conversely, Revelation 20 tells us that the unsaved will experience eternal torment. By denying the reality of eternal punishment, Jehovah's Witnesses like you say that this passage can't be taken seriously. Well, the truth of the matter is that Jesus not only taught us of heaven, but also taught us that hell is a tangible reality (Matt. 13:40-42; 18:8-9; 25:41.46).

3. Are Jehovah's Witnesses False Prophets?
Jehovah's Witnesses freely admit that they have made failed predictions in the past. Is this enough to categorize them as false prophets?
Deuteronomy 18:22 states that a false prophet is one who, in the name of the Lord makes a prophecy which does not take place and is not true.
First of all, the Watchtower were not considered by the organization as "optional" In other words, to remain a Jehovah's Witnesses  in good standing, you must wholeheartedly believe in and uphold these prophecies by the Watchtower. They were certainly not expendable.
You see, the prophecies themselves concerned important events holding significant implications. For example, the Watchtower initially proclaimed that Jesus second coming happened invisibly in the year 1874. Today, Jehovah's witnesses believed this even actually took place in the year 1914. It's important to note that Paul issued very strong warnings about these setting false dates concerning Christ's return (2 Thes. 2:1-3).
The Watchtower's false prophecies have produced nothing but despair and disillusionment, and have caused many Jehovah's Witnesses to resort to drastic measures which they would not have taken place otherwise. Numbers of Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, quit their jobs and liquidated their personal belongings as they anticipated the world to end in the year 1975. Needless to say, that prediction never materialized.
Well when all the facts are considered, it becomes readily apparent that Jehovah's Witnesses are false prophets who will fill people "with false hopes" (Jer. 23:16).

4. Are The Jehovah's Witnesses Right About The Trinity?
Jehovah's Witnesses  are the most vocal critics in our society of the doctrine of the Trinity. Are their criticisms of the Trinity right?
In 1989 the Jehovah's Witnesses published a booklet entitled should You Believe in the Trinity? Although the Watchtower Society has always attacked the Trinity as a pagan doctrine, this booklet was their first attempt at a systematic refutation of the Trinity. Some of the major flaws with the arguments that they ues in this booklet is: First of all, the booklet continues the time-honored tradition of the Watchtower to misrepresent the Christian scholars and church fathers, with numerous quotations taken out of context. For example, the booklet actually tries to argue that the churc father Tertullian did not believe in the Trinity, when, in fact Tertullian was one of the first to use the word "trinity."
Second, the book repeats the usual tired antitrinitarian arguments against the Trinity, for example, that the doctrine of the Trinity was developed in the fourth century. Of course, the Witnesses' own doctrine concerning God and Christ was developed in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, but that doesn't seem to bother them- they undoubtedly don't want to be confused by facts.
Third, the booklet contains the standard arguments against the biblical teachings that Jesus was, in fact, God, focusing especially on the fact that Jesus was in submission to God the Father- as if this has escaped the attention of the Christian church for all of these centuries! The Bible, in fact, teaches both that Jesus was God and that, as the son of God, and especially as a man, Jesus submitted Himself voluntarily to the Father and seeks to bring glory and honor to the Father. Trinitarians affirm both of these biblical truths- Jehovah's Witnesses do not.
The jehovah's Witnesses' arguments against the Trinity might sound persuasive at first but, on careful examination, can be clearly seen to be without substance. As usual, they give you the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie. On the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity, that's the CRI perspective from Hank Hanegraaff.

Out of Zion, If there is no heaven then we are most miserable and wihout hope, what is the point Jesus coming to die for us to save us from sin?, what is salvation if there is no heaven? what is the point trying to be good moral people if we all are going to die and its all over for us. Another lie from Jehovah's Witnesses, but yes there is hope and there is a heaven for those who put their hope, and trust in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

True Christians will not be militaristic or nationalistic.
But in the old testament God used the Isrealite to distroy evil, ungodly people. Will you let someone get hurt if you can stop it, so the war in Iraq was just. This man killed, tortured, and rape his own people.

Politics what you said in your writing on the 4. Answer you gived has nothing to do with politics, but rather Jesus said in Matt.22:21 Render therefore unto caesar the things which are caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. We still live in this fallen world and we have a part to play in it, or will you stop using money?, will you stop paying taxes and using banks?

God prohibits images, icons, statues in worship.
Why was this command given in the commandments, its because God knows men hearts, and man will worship anything but God, and this was happening right after the Exodus from Egypt, and we see in this forum people worshiping nature, but we do not worship the cross, fish symbol, Dove, or any other thing but God Almighty. We do this to show people that we worship the Lord God and that we love Him because He first Loved us even showing His Love by what He did on the Cross Awesome Pure Love from God.

IlovGod, just as I come here to learn about Rastafari and gain a TRUE perspective on it, you should go to a Jehovah's Witness if you want to gain a TRUE perspective on our faith, because by your comments it is very evident all of what you have heard is from 3rd party liars, or from apostates.  It's not a very considerate thing to do to fire words at me that are not true teachings of my faith nor things that I have said.

We certainly believe in eternal life.  That is the gift Jesus Christ promised to those who obeyed his commands and exercised faith in the ransom sacrifice.  If we did not believe in eternal life, like the saducees of Jesus' day who did not believe in the resurrection that provides eternal life (Acts 24:15), then what you say would be true - and that would be pretty pointless, I certainly do agree.  

However, there are two hopes for where that eternal life will be spent.  Revelation clearly sets forth that 144,000 will rule as "kings, priests, and judges" during Christ's milennial reign (Revelation 7 & 14).  

Of such ones, Paul writes in Revelation,
"And I saw, and look! the Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and fourty-four thousand having hame and the name of his father written on their foreheads.  And I heard a sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps.  And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures (see Daniel 7:8) and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and fourty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth." -Revelation 14:1-4

Contrasted with this is the "great crowd out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tounges" whose reward is eternal life on paradise earth.  Compare  (and once again note that I my entire post is using SCRIPTURES):

"For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth...the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." -Psalm 37:9,11

"But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off.  The righeous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it." -Psalm 37:28,29

"Happy are the mild-tempered ones (or "meek," KJV), since they will inherit the earth." -Matthew 5:5
---
Addressing the rest:

It'd be nice if you actually read and reasoned on what I typed to you instead of evangelizing me with nonsense pasted in from some so-called Biblical scholar.  I'm not going to have a discussion with "him," I say sarcastically; I was addressing you.  I provided you that link on the trinity through the watchtower website, but you clearly didn't read that, so I'm just following policy.  I've done a lot of study of the trinity and all it has proven to be is a pagan doctrine that a bunch of Roman men cooked up in the fourth century so that they could maintain a foothold over all their congregation and leave part of God "above the understanding" of the layman.  Again, remember what Jesus said to the pharisees regarding such action:

"It is in vain that they continue worshipping me, for they teach the commandments of men as doctrines."  -Matthew 15:9

My point about "El Shaddai (Genesis 17:1)" and "El Gibbohr (Isaiah 9:6)" between Jehovah, El Shaddai being GOD ALMIGHTY and El Gibbohr for Jesus Christ being MIGHTY GOD is IRREFUTABLE evidence proving that Jehovah is not only separate from Christ, but mightier in power.  Can you think of any way of dancing around the confliction in terms there to support the farcical trinity doctrine?  No!  Neither can any other Christian in Christendom.  But then again, going to the Hebrew language is usually out of bounds for them since they only believe what they are told to believe by their pastors and priests.  

Quote:
"True Christians will not be militaristic or nationalistic.
But in the old testament God used the Isrealite to distroy evil, ungodly people. Will you let someone get hurt if you can stop it, so the war in Iraq was just. This man killed, tortured, and rape his own people."

So you've come around to change your opinion here a little?  You're right.  And yet you find "Christians" participating in the military under the brainwashing of the US Government who has portrayed themselves as the HEROES TO THE KNOWN WORLD in history textbooks, when in reality they are TYRANTS.  Just ask a few of the educated sistren on this site who are true history buffs; that is, they know true history, not the whitewashed trash the serve in the school system.  Yes, Saddam ran a terrible and ugly regime, but was that why Bush went to war there?  No.  He claimed they had something to do with 911, which we have already found out (surprise, surprise) is not true, and he also claimed there were weapons of mass destruction, which is also not true!  He went there for three letters, three letters that will pay him immensely in under the table interests when he is out of office:  O-I-L.  So don't wrap this dominant and Satanic regime that is the US Military in a martyr's cloak.  It's self serving and imperialistic.  Simple.  Consider yourself a few degrees less naive now.

Contrast this with what Jehovah instructed the Israelites to do:  kill Baal worshippers and others that were practicing pagan rites that included child sacrifice, cannibalism, and acts of sodomy.  I fail to see any similarity...at all.  Killing Saddam may be justified (and it may not depending upon one's view of capital punishment), but the method the US took was deceitful and they killed completely innocent people.  And last, but most hilariously not least, Bush is hardly a prophet of God like Moses, Isaiah, or Jeremiah.  In fact, I sometimes wonder if he really even believes in God or if it's just part of his mind game with the mindless American public.

Quote:
"Politics what you said in your writing on the 4. Answer you gived has nothing to do with politics, but rather Jesus said in Matt.22:21 Render therefore unto caesar the things which are caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. We still live in this fallen world and we have a part to play in it, or will you stop using money?, will you stop paying taxes and using banks?"

In all politeness, what is your point here?  We abstain from political involvement but pay our taxes.  I completely agree.  So does every watchtower article or any witness I've ever associated with.  Are you misunderstanding something?

Quote:
"God prohibits images, icons, statues in worship.
Why was this command given in the commandments, its because God knows men hearts, and man will worship anything but God, and this was happening right after the Exodus from Egypt, and we see in this forum people worshiping nature, but we do not worship the cross, fish symbol, Dove, or any other thing but God Almighty. We do this to show people that we worship the Lord God and that we love Him because He first Loved us even showing His Love by what He did on the Cross Awesome Pure Love from God."

It does not say that he "prohibits worship" of them.  No, he forbids the very use of them!  Saying "You must not make for yourself a carved image" is pretty clear.  NONE SHOULD EXIST!  It's a difficult thing for us as physical beings to fully comprehend and put this into practice because so much of our human experience is visual and tactile.  We like to see something to focus our mind upon when we pray it seems.  When I was raised a Catholic, I would sometimes pray with my rosary beads even when I wasn't praying the rosary.  Something about them seemed to put me in a spiritual mindset.  But Jehovah doesn't want us associating his spirit with the inferior physical things of this world.  He cannot be contained within any single image, statue, or icon.

You'll probably get upset at this, but it's a widely accepted view by most scholars that Jesus died on an upright stake and not a cross.  Here's an excerpt from a highly regarded Biblical scholar (and non-witness, for your peace of mind), W.E. Vine:

"The shape of the 'cross,' two beams at right angels, 'had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt.  By the middle of the 3rd century AD the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith.  In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols.  Hence the Tau or T in its most frequent form, with the cross piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ."  -Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, W.E. Vine, Vol I p. 256

So while your intentions are certainly noble, using a cross to remember the death of Christ, it isn't necessarily a Christian tradition.  The cross came from pagan worship and was integrated into Christendom over 300 years after Jesus' death.  Besides that, why mince words and test the word of Jehovah?  If he forbids idolatry, why would you bring crosses - which are idols, no two ways about it - into your worship?  Perhaps you can be the first in your congregation to reform that aspect of your worship and show them what you learned about the history of the cross.

Out of Zion,
1. I have a true perspective already of the Jehovah's Witnesses, I just written the truth on that organization. what I did write is true teachings of your faith look into it, and it is not a third party lie, I had already known this and so I wrote it for you to know do some research of your faith.

2. You said that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in eternal life, but it does not go with biblical teachings. If someone cease to exists, and they believe in Christ then their is no eternal life for them right?
3. Paul did not write any message in Revelation, but John only. You mention Matthew 5:5 That the Meek will possess the earth, but will you deny in the same chapter MAtthew 5:3 where it mensions heaven?, how about Revelation 7:13-17.
4. The Trinity is teach in the scriptures by Jesus himself when he said if you see me you have seen the father, Jesus said I and the Father am one( John 10:30), also read John 5:21-47 it is a strange thing to see that the scribes and pharisees have risen up again in the Jehovah's witnesses for this is the same arguments they had with Jesus they deny Him as God, they deny him as Savior, and you can read this in John 10:30 when Jesus said, I and the Father are one They wanted to stone Him for saying the same thing we Christians are saying read also Matthew 9:3-7, Matthew 12:32 of the Holy Ghost being God.
You quoted Matthew 15:9, but you do not understand what it means, because you take it out of context read the whole chapter, and see that these people where worshiping Jesus with their mouth only and not from their heart which makes it a vain, or useless worship.
5. Another lie is that Bush went to war for Oil are you there to see him gain from this? He may not be a prophet, but I'm sure God heard the prayers of Christians, saw the tears of the Iraq people who suffer under this evil ruler, and God could of used Bush to set them free from an evil dictator?
6. My point is that you wrote that True Christian are to remain seperate from worldly engagements and political Activism it is what you said right after that, that does not make any sense. This has nothing to do with politics nor staying away from it. what has to do with politics is in Matthew 22:21 When Jesus said Render unto Ceaser who was Ceaser he was part of a Goverment system and Jesus said render unto the Goverment what is due them, and unto God the things of God. We still live on this earth and we must take part in politics to help keep evil leaders away from ruling us like Sadam, or Papa Doc. in Haiti.
7. God Prohibits Images, Icons, Statues in Worship.
If you keep reading the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 you will see that God do prohibits worshiping them For it is written that we shall not bow down to them, nor serve them.
You said Jehovah doesn't want us associating his spirit with inferior physical things of this world. The cross has nothing to do with associating Gods spirit with inferior things, It is the visible Christ who died on an physical earthly cross or tree from this world.
You said I probably will get upset at this, that Jesus was crucified on an upright stake and not a cross, well this may come as a shock to you, but I had known this a long time ago I'm not a new convert in Christ, you see if I was worshiping a cross, if it was a wrong thing to have then I will be disappointed, but you see it does not matter if it was a stake, or a cross the important thing is that Christ came and died for our sins and rose again for our salvation of eternal life. And so I wear my cross in boldness towards the Love God had shown to me by his son and Lord Jesus Christ our God.
Glory to God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit Forever more. Trinity all three = One God, and God teach us this as with a Husband and Wife where two have join themselves together and become one flesh in marriage.

ILovGod,

I'm glad you took the time to respond.  I'd thought that you abandoned this discussion.  All I am hoping to accomplish is to clear up these wild misunderstandings you have of Jehovah's organization.  In doing so, I'm using not my words, but those of Jehovah and Christ Jesus themselves, directly from the Bible.  Thus, if you reject the truths of the scriptures, as many often do in our ministry, the fault cannot be found in my reasonings.  My hope is that through a more close examination of the Bible, you'll come to realize that there is much more to Jehovah's plan for the vindication of his sovreignty and man's salvation than you may currently realize.  So do please take the time to read these points slowly because I feel you may be rushing through my words by the inaccuracy of your understanding of my replies.

Addressing your points in order:

1 and 2,
Please read my posts more carefully.  Either you have a problem with reading comprehension (I'm not intending to be insulting) or you're just trying to stir up conflict, and "a slave of the Lord does not need to fight." (2 Timothy 2:24).  It's just not possible for anyone to come right back and say we don't believe in eternal life after the post I just made explaining how we gain eternal life.  And you have not learned the truth of Jehovah's organization contrary to what you tell me, or you would know that we do believe in eternal life, Jesus is important to our faith and is our savior, and many other things that have been incorrectly blasphemed in Satan's attack on our faith.

As far as "doing research on my faith," as you call it, all the research I will ever do is with scriptures.  I'm not interested in reading the diatribe of some pompous fool in Christendom that is writing his propanganda and lies (John 8:44).  But if anyone ever wants to present an idea to me using the Word of God, then that is righteous and acceptable.  All other ideology is manmade refuse and not worthy of discussion or consideration.

Did you not see the fact that a resurrection of the dead is what grants them the prospect of eternal life?  Until the apostasy (which became Christendom), the resurrection was the only hope that Jews entertained for a hope of eternal life.  Consider these scriptures:

"Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombas will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of of judgement."  -John 5:28, 29

Now stop and actually think for a moment for me here, will you?  What is the need for a resurrection of the dead if they are all currently floating around in the the clouds playing harps and drinking wine?  I know the myths that the antichrist pastors of Christendom feed people may sound comforting, but the truth of the matter is AS I HAVE SHOWN YOU AUTHORITATIVELY USING SCRIPTURES ALONE: Fuiste polvo, polvo eres; To dust you return, for you are dust.  All hope of eternal life resides with Jesus' authoritative decision on each person's salvation.  

Paul, too, expressed his knowledge of this fundamental truth of the true Christian faith:
"and I have a hope towards God, which hope these men (these men being the Jews) themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." -Acts 24:15

See, prior to the mythological additions to Christendom of the immortality of the soul, an invention of Greek philosophy, the only hope for eternal life was the resurrection hope.  Thus, the true Christian faith, being founded on Judaism, the root of Christianity, would entertain the same hope.  Christendom is easily identifyable as an imposterous religion due to the fact that it does not present this hope to its worshippers as the true method of Jehovah God's restoration of paradise.  Continuing, with scriptures,

"The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, star differs from star in glory.  So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory.  It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power.  It is sown a physical body, it is raised up in a spiritual body.  If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one."  -1 Corinthians 15:42-44

So here again you see that there is a change that takes place before one gains eternal life, and it requires a "[raising] up" before one gains eternal life.  So quite clearly that must occur before one lives eternally.  Continuing with this, read this scripture:

"This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day.  For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day." -John 6:39,40

Now, I ask you a very simple reading comprehension question here: When does it say the resurrection will occur?  If you answered "the last day," you are correct!  And since the scripture before it clearly explains that no one is "raised up" to life until the resurrection, you clearly see that no one is raised up to eternal life until the last day.  Since the last day has yet to come, the dead are still awaiting the time when they will "hear his (Jesus') voice and come out" (Jn 5:28).  

The scriptures from Eccl 5:9,10 and Psalm 146:4 that tell of the dead's condition, of being "conscious of nothing at all" then should not serve as bleak statements that this life is all there is! Rather, they affirm a comforting truth to those who have lost ones in death, that they are not suffering in a fictional hell, or wandering around a vast spiritual purgatory awaiting redemption.  Rather, they are simply awaiting the sound of Jesus Christ's voice to resume their life, the "real life" as the apostle Paul calls it in the Bible.

3 "Paul did not write any message in Revelation, but John only.  You mention Matthew 5:5 That the Meek will possess the earth, but will you deny in the same chapter MAtthew 5:3 where it mensions heaven?, how about Revelation 7:13-17."

I didn't realize I said anything about Paul & Rev.  If I did, it was a typo - I sometimes confuse words of the same number of letters in my head because I'm a numerically orientated thinker.  Sorry, Nonetheless, continuing,

Yes.  Exactly.  Heaven AND Earth.  I showed that there are two hopes.  There are 144,000 who are selected by Jesus Christ to reign in the heavens (Revelation 7, Revelation 14).  And then there is the majority of mankind, the "great crowd," as I mentioned who lives forever on Earth.  The scripture you mentioned Rev 7:13-17 refers to them, the vast multitude that will survive the great tribulation.

Concerning the sermon on the mount in Matthew 5, we know that Jesus was aware when he spoke those words that heaven and earth are two different places, so it's rather obvious as well that he knew there were to be two destinies for his followers.

Whether or not you agree with this theology is no longer the point here - it's whether you are able to see that is derived from the scriptures which state that there will be those who "will possess the earth and reside for ever upon it" (Psalm 37:29) and those who [are/were] "bought from the earth" (Revelation 14:3).

4.  

I applaud your understanding of the scriptures here.  The scribes & pharisees were indeed absolutely insensed that Jesus would dare to compare himself to Almighty God.  Also, it is good that you understand that Jesus Christ is in union with Jehovah God, but this is not to be taken in the same sense of a mathematical union, but rather a spiritual union, if you understand what I mean by that.  I can be in union with Jesus Christ, as can you, and any follower of his Way, but that does not equate us with Jesus Christ in any way shape or form.  Read the context of the scripture in John when he says that he is in union with God:

"...You blaspheme, because I said I am God's Son?  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me.  But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, in order that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father." John 10:36-38

You see here that he is discussing his actions and his Father's will.  In what sense are they "in union?"  Not in the sense that they are the same person, but that they are seeking to accomplish the same objective and that the work in cohesion with one another.  

You say, very boldly again might I add, that "The Trinity is teach in the scriptures by Jesus himself when he said if you see me you have seen the father, Jesus said I and the Father am one( John 10:30)."

This is the scripture here that proceeded the illustration above I just quoted.  Husband and Wife are one, but are they part of a trinity?  If Jesus wanted Christians to worship a three-headed god, he would have made it known in some illustration or teaching.  Rather, his so-called followers did it in reverse order, made the three-headed god and then tried to find illustrations and scriptures taken out of context to support it.  It wasn't mentioned in the first century congregations anywhere in Paul's letters; the apostles did not mention it in their Gospels; and Jesus did not teach of it nor ever utter the word.  

It is a man made concept and it's a rather common one at that.  Ancient Babylon had a triune godhead (Ishtar, Sin, Shamash), so does Hinduism (Brahma, Siva, Visnu), ancient Egypt (Osirus, Isus, Horus), Buddhism (Kampuchea).  Can it be made any more obvious that the trinity is a teaching of non-Christian religions that was integrated into Christianity?  I've used some concrete historical evidence to demonstrate the pagan origins of the cross and now the trinity and yet you continue to defend them.  Remember what Paul wrote in Colossians 2:21 concerning the things that were "of the world" and not a true part of the Christian faith (reference is made to fornication, but also to "unclean things," which pagan practices certainly are):

"Do not handle, nor taste, nor touch, respecting things that are destined to destruction by being used up in accordance with the teachings of men?"

So the admonition is to be taken seriously.  If these things do not originate with God, but rather with religions you do not practice, you should seriously examine the role they have in your faith.  Consider this scripture referring to spiritual adultery, which is the mixing of pagan teachings, such as the trinity!

"For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband that I might present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."  -2 Corinthians 11:2

Now, if we are to be chaste spiritual virgins for Christ, should we be mixing in elements that came from pagan worship such as triune godheads and crosses?  I should think not!

Quote:
"You quoted Matthew 15:9, but you do not understand what it means, because you take it out of context read the whole chapter, and see that these people where worshiping Jesus with their mouth only and not from their heart which makes it a vain, or useless worship."

You're partially right, but the context has application to the trinity and I'll explain how.  "Christians" today often stake a claim on their salvation by an understanding of Jehovah and Jesus Christ, yet many of them do not understand either of them in their true, unadulterated essence.  The trinity accomplishes this diabolic purpose, in that, those that are dogmatically enamored with the trinity integrate it as part of their relationship with the false god they create by worshipping a triune god when we there is only one Jehovah, Almighty God, "alone, most high over all the earth" (Ps 83:18).  In the context of Matthew 15:9 they are questioning why the apostles did not wash their hands, and Jesus reveals that their expressions of piety are not what save them, but rather their hearts and their true spirituality.  Similarly, these "scholars" or even laymen that are consumed with the false doctrine of the trinity justify their salvation through the knowledge they have accrued of these man-made teachings and ignore the most fundamental Christian doctrines: such as loving your neighbor, and loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind.  When all one's emphasis is placed on doctrines, rules, and ideology, true spirituality is often lost, thus they are said to be "worshipping in vain."   Understand my use of the scripture now?

5:  I can't even believe you are that brainwashed by the media.  Politicians are run by one thing and one thing only:  money. Big business - OIL - will be a source of immense political support as it is a large brace in the structure of the Global Economy. It may make you feel warm and cozy to think that he went over there in the name of God as some humanitarian crusader, but it was all about the bottom LINE $.  Like Rootsie said, at least in Russia the people knew the media was lying.  Here, people like yourself gobble up their fecal sandwiches like its manna from heaven.

6. "We still live on this earth and we must take part in politics to help keep evil leaders away from ruling us like Sadam, or Papa Doc. in Haiti."

Was Jesus concerned with liberating the Jews from oppressive rulership by the Romans?  No.  That's why they rejected him; their "version" of the Messiah would do such things.  The true Christian thus acts like the Jesus that was rejected, advocating and prophesying of God's kingdom and not being consumed with the political affairs of Satan's world.  Saddam Hussein and Castro may not be just rulers in your opinion, but they are going to pop up all over the world regardless of how many patriotic zealots there are trying to make the entire world fly a red, white, and blue flag.  Further, to let you in on a secret:  most of Cuba loves Castro.  Don't ask me why.

7:  Still seems like you're dancing around the idol and saying it's not there.  A cross won't save anyone.

"Trinity all three = One God, and God teach us this as with a Husband and Wife where two have join themselves together and become one flesh in marriage."

It's ironic that you used the very example here (I read and replied to each point in order) that I used as a counter example.  I guess it's all a matter of perspective on spiritual union.  Thus, you see in a sense:  the trinity I don't believe in may be the one you do believe in.  Or, to state it more accurately:  Words are so inadequate for matters of the spirit.  Yes?

Anyway, Jah-bless for discussion.  I hope you're beginning to gain a semblance of understanding of the faith to which I am proud to belong.  I am not denouncing you or your beliefs, but only "[making] a defense before everyone that demands...a reason for the hope in you...with mild temper and deep respect." (1 Peter 3:15, PQ)  Haters and opposers can throw words like "cult" around till they are blue in the face, but the spiritual paradise and unity we experience as witnesses is unmatched by any sect in Christendom...The organization is not perfect, and there have been errors made, such as some of the prophecy dates, but what organization is?  The fact that our errors have not resulted in millions of deaths, like the "Holy" Crusades or WWI & WWII (which were clergy spurred & supported in some countries) is a source of solace for me.  Further, the WT Society, humans like the rest of us (!), admit their errors and correct them rather than stubbornly insisting on being correct (Ahem, Catholic church vs. Copernicus...etc, etc).  

Nonetheless, I look forward to continuing to reason with you if you desire to do so.

-brett

Well it was nice chatting with you, but we can go on and on with this subject forever, but I see that you are strongly rooted in your belief.
Hopefully you can take the bible literally, and believe it for what it says instead of trying to analyze every little detail in it. I believe that God can keep His words pure. Many have tried to distroy it, but the bible have been around for hundreds of years and it is still changing lives. I trust that one day you will see that there is a heaven, a spirit in all man, and a new Jerusalem. Read Galation 5. Paul wrote to be absant from the body is to be presant with the Lord for those who follow Him read 2 Corinthians 5:8, and try not to analyze it, try not to break it down to what you want it to say, but instead take Gods words as He says it.
May God open your eyes to see His words as truth.

It absolutely ASTOUNDS me that you can read all of what I wrote and still say such things as "I trust that one day you will see that there is a heaven."  !!  I absolutely believe in heaven; and I also believe in eternal life on earth.  The Bible clearly makes a distinction that there are TWO hopes for eternal salvation.  Further, I know I made that clear enough for you to understand in my replies, so clearly there is something lacking in your mental comprehension abilities.  

You are correct about God's word being perserved, and I take the scriptures that are intended to be literal, literally, which I why I do not believe such integrated pagan concepts such as the trinity which were never teachings of the early Christian church nor was it explicity taught by Christ himself.  It's just a doctrine based on misunderstood and miscontrued scriptures.  So I, too, pray that you may come to see the outright deception of the preachers that are so highly regarded within the faith of Christendom.  I even highlighted for you that the trinity doctrine existed in pagan religions that were around before the advent of Christianity and that had no mental effect on you nor did it even elicit a response.  I guess I should appologize for attempting to make you think.

"May God open your eyes to see His words as truth."

You can save your condescending encouragement for those that need it.  I've exercised my faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ and do my best to practice the word of Almighty Jehovah and to adhere to his principles.  I will maintain my faith until the end, as "it is he that endures to the end that shall be saved." (Mt 24:13)  The bold truth of the scriptures is made clear in the specific scriptures I highlighted in my posts which you subsequently ignored, either unwilling or unable to make a reply to such clearly formed logic.  

Make no mistake, I'm not judging you by any means whatsoever, we're not to do so as imperfect and sinful humans (Mt 7; Luke 6:34). I'm simply disgusted at how the cesspool of Christendom and has stained your ability to read and understand scriptures, because if you logically read through the posts I made, it paints a clear picture of Jehovah God's plan for man's salvation...

Thanks for the discussion - I only wish that my words weren't used so in vain because it really appears you did not even read them at all by such blazenly ignorant comments such as that I don't believe in heaven.  Perhaps I am being too harsh, though, because in complete seriousness, I doubt your ability to read, comprehend, and assimilate information.  Bye.

Last - since I did not touch on it.

In the entire letters of Corinthians I & II (and indeed throughout all the Pauline epistles) Paul is writing to the John class of annointed Christians, those who would indeed inherit the heavenly kingdom, you are right.  The other hope, "the great multitude" of Revelation, those that will live on the earth forever, however, does not share this hope.  As I wrote in the post above this:  2 hopes, 2 destinies.  God's completed creation is a theocracy, which by definition has rulers and subjects.  The earthly dwelling Christians are the subjects; the anointed John class are the beneficient rulers - contrasted with what we commonly think of when we hear the word "ruler" in today's context.

quote from Joseph Campbell:

" ‘We should understand well," said an old  [Lakota] medicine man, Black Elk, the Keeper of the Sacred  Pipe of his tribe, "that all things are the works of the Great Spirit. We should know that He is within all things: the trees, the grasses, the rivers, the mountains, and all the four-legged animals, and the winged peoples; and even more important, we should understand that He is alo above all these things and peoples. When we do understand all this deeply in our hearts, then we will fear, and love, and know the great Spirit, and then we will be and act and live as He intends.’
    Wherever myths still are living symbols, the mythologies are teeming dreamworlds of such images. But wherever systematizing theologians have appeared and gained the day…the figures have become petrified into propositions. Mythology is misread then as direct history or science, symbol becomes fact, metaphor dogma, and the quarrels of the sects arise, each mistaking its own symbolic signs for the ultimate reality…
    ‘But he who is called Krishna,’ said the nineteenth century Indian teacher Ramakrishna, ‘is also called Shiva and bears the names Shakti, Jesus, and Allah as well-the one Rama with a thousand names…The substance is one under different names and everyone is seeking the same substance; nothing but climate, temperament, and names vary.’" 73

Yes )))))

..well said. This thread attests to the very nature of this sentiment...



...so true

This thread attests to the need for a higher emphasis on literacy.  It's tough to discuss theology with people that lack basic reading skills.   ::)