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Tracey
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Rootsie.com


« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2004, 08:04:06 AM »

SMILE....welcome to the threshing board!... I love it..

Out_of_Zion....PAY ATTENTION..

Here is a wonderful opportunity to look at yourself IF you are willing. One of the great things about this board is being able to hold one's views up to the light and have them examined by many different angles of light...each coming from a different spectrum yet each a radiant particle from the same beam of light...are ya with me?

I am always overjoyed when I observe youthmen try to articulate their budding views. However, one thing I have also noticed is that many youth are usually FULL of themselves, and take a little knowledge and run like the wind with it.. then try to hammer their knewly attained viewpoints like a sledge hammer (with authority) without first having the direct experience to know what the heck they're talking about..example: how can you speak authoritativly about sex? Have you had the qualitative experience to know what you are speaking about? Hence, loads of silly comments can be ripped, as they speak from mere pontification and from a limited experience. Typically, youth often do NOT take the time to think before they speak but rather go for trying to woo an audience in order to support their newly-formed ideals.

You are a student...that is good. The world holds great lessons if you are willing to step ouside the box and examine your views in light of ALL that is. When your defenses rise...and they will...pay attention...there is so much to learn from those who have come before, and from what has contributed to where you, and everyone else IS today. That's why it is vital to know your racial identity and how that has contributed to what is going on in the world today. You cannot disassociate yourself, try as you may, from the people who birthed you and brought you into existance. There is a history there that now provides you with a certain responsibility to act from the collective conscious given from what you know and have experienced..and what you will DO with what you are willing to learn and become aware of.

welcome to the threshing board!
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iyah360
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Higher Reasoning


« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2004, 09:10:54 AM »

out_of_zion:

take this opportunity to learn(if you wish). this is one of the rare places where you will get this kind of education.

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iyah360
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Posts: 592

Higher Reasoning


« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2004, 10:21:54 AM »

"How does Babylon fit into the schematics with regard to Ethopia?  My understanding was always that it was the Babylonians and Sumerians that were responsible for the vast majority of the world religions, from those typically thought of as Western (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) to the fundamentals of Eastern thought and martial arts.

Did a undercurrent of Ethopian mythology/theology/spirituality migrate northward to Babylon or did the Babylonian influences seep southward?  How would you be able to accurately distinguish which pattern occured?"


Modern Ethiopia is very small compared to ancient Ethiopia. Modern Ethiopia is actually the remnant of the more modern Abysinnian empire.

"In modern geography the name Ethiopia is confined to the country known as Abyssinia, an extensive territory in East Africa. In ancient times Ethiopia extended over vast domains in both Africa and Asia. "It seems certain," declares Sir E. A. Wallis Budge, "that classical historians and geographers called the whole region from India to Egypt, both countries inclusive, by the name of Ethiopia, and in consequence they regarded all the dark-skinned and black peoples who inhabited it as Ethiopians. Mention is made of Eastern and Western Ethiopians and it is probable that the Easterners were Asiatics and the Westerners Africans." (History of Ethiopia, Vol. I., Preface, by Sir E. A. Wallis Budge.) In addition Budge notes that, "Homer and Herodotus call all the peoples of the Sudan, Egypt, Arabia, Palestine and Western Asia and India Ethiopians." (Ibid., p. 2.) Herodotus wrote in his celebrated History that both the Western Ethiopians, who lived in Africa, and the Eastern Ethiopians who dwelled in India, were black in complexion, but that the Africans had curly hair, while the Indians were straight-haired. (The aboriginal black inhabitants of India are generally referred to as the Dravidians, of whom more will be said as we proceed.) Another classical historian who wrote about the Ethiopians was Strabo, from whom we quote the following: "I assert that the ancient Greeks, in the same way as they classed all the northern nations with which they were familiar as Scythians, etc., so, I affirm, they designated as Ethiopia the whole of the southern countries toward the ocean." Strabo adds that "if the moderns have confined the appellation Ethiopians to those only who dwell near Egypt, this must not be allowed to interfere with the meaning of the ancients." Ephorus says that: "The Ethiopians were considered as occupying all the south coasts of both Asia and Africa," and adds that "this is an ancient opinion of the of the Greeks." Then we have the view of Stephanus of Byzantium, that: "Ethiopia was the first established country on earth; and the Ethiopians were the first who introduced the worship of the gods, and who established laws." The vestiges of this early civilization have been found in Nubia, the Egyptian Sudan, West Africa, Egypt, Mashonaland, India, Persia, Mesopotamia, Arabia, South America, Central America, Mexico, and the United States."
. . .

"Professor George Rawlinson, in his essay On the Ethnic Affinities of the Races of Western Asia, which directs our attention to: "the uniform voice of primitive antiquity, which spoke of the Ethiopians as a single race, dwelling along the shores of the Southern Ocean from India to the Pillars of Hercules." (Herodotus, Vol. I., Book. I., Appendix, Essay XI., Section-5.) Rawlinson adds an explanatory note to this section of his essay, which we here reproduce: "Recent linguistic discovery tends to show that a Cushite or Ethiopian race did in the earliest times extend itself along the shores of the Southern Ocean from Abyssinia to India. The whole peninsula of India was peopled by a race of their character before the influx of the Aryans; it extended from the Indus along the seacoast through the modern Beluchistan and Kerman, which was the proper country of the Asiatic Ethiopians; the cities on the northern shores of the Persian Gulf are shown by the brick inscriptions found among their ruins to have belonged to this race; it was dominant in Susiana and Babylonia, until overpowered in the one country by Aryan, in the other by Semitic intrusion; it can be traced both by dialect and tradition throughout the whole south coast of the Arabian peninsula.""
http://www.nbufront.org/html/MastersMuseums/JGJackson/EthiopiaOriginOfCivilization.html

The nile river flows from south to north. Upper Egypt is actually in the south and Lower Egypt in the North. The ancient cultures and peoples of inner Africa are the progenitors of the Egyptian civilization. The ideas and people from inner Africa followed the path of the nile and established the beginnings of what would evolve and become the high civilization of pre-dynastic and dynastic ancient Egypt.
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2004, 11:10:09 AM »

"You cannot disassociate yourself, try as you may, from the people who birthed you and brought you into existance."

That's a very accurate way of stating it.  My genetic history is mainly Polish and Cherokee (odd mix, I suppose), but I feel completely detatched from both lineages, merely as though I was "brought into existence" by my mom and dad who in turn would probably say the same about the matter.  In this melting pot of world civilizations, the USA, many of us have completely lost connection with our genetic & ancestral roots.  It's just a sad reality.
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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
Rootsie
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Rootsie.com


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« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2004, 05:15:18 PM »

There is no such thing as spiritual development without examination of our genetic ancestral roots.
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Immy
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RastafariSpeaks .com


« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2004, 12:16:48 AM »

greetings to all

Well this is a possibility of the church tampering with the bible.
The Romans did interfere with the bible to fit their religious beliefs. Jesus came to tell the truth about the Most High. Jesus was pure love, there could of been a possibility that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. H.I.M. Selassie I said we should read the bible because there is some truth in it.  He didn't say everything was true. So have a open mind in life.
Dont be quick to say something is false, when you were not even there. You sound like you are cruxifing one for having an open thought, it seems like thats the same thing that happen to Jesus, because he was teaching about love, not some laws set by religion.  Jesus said "I am the word."  That means to be the word , not read it.
Jah bless
Blessings flow
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ILovGod
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AfricaSpeaks.co m


« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2004, 10:12:21 AM »

If as you all have said that Christianity is a white mans religion then why is it that they are killing one another as example in America they took prayers and the ten commandments out of school, and mentioning God in public places like at work can get you suied, anything that have God in it they want to do away with it, If Christianity is a Eroupean religion then why is it that they persecuted so many Christians in Rome feeding them to wild beast like lions, burning them alive in hot oil, If Christianity is a white mans religion why did the white people from Rome crucified Christ, Why are Christians being killed and some being put into slavery in Africa Sudan by their own black people, China Christians being killed, Russia, America law suits for even wearing a cross at work.
The problem in every religion and in every society is extremist, fanatics, people who go to the extreme, but are you going to blame everyone who are Christians for their foolish behavior like the kkk and other groups, It was the Church who help to get rid of Slavery.
The Catholic church did much to hurt Christianity with their wrong beliefs, and practices, and this is why the Christian church have seperated themselves from the Roman Church.
Jesus who is God as Jesus said I and the Father are one and the same, also in the very first book of the bible in Genisis 1:26 God said let us make man (the Trinity).
Jesus lived and taught nothing but love and peace Jesus went around teaching about God, forgiveness, love, mercy.
Jesus went around healing sick people and loving them enough to change their thinking and their lives from sin to a fruitfull life of love and forgiveness, Jesus change their way of thinking about God that they may see Gods love in His son John 3:16 says That God so love the world, that He give His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
What I have seen in this Reasoning Forum is ignorants to the real truth (Jesus) as God, I see where people can worship nature and ancestors this is wrong and a great sin, I see here that people can worship themselves the inner man to fine wisdom, and whatever other foolishness they can believe in to deny God existence as though you can fine wisdom in trees and nature, and animals, moon, the sun, and so much other foolishness. You say that the white man made changes in the bible, but yet you all are saying things that are not even in the bible show me where is it that Jesus was married? the only place you will find such lies is in made up stories and lies in books that deny God, Creation and Gods words as true. Most of the world are doing the same denying God and His words, but all this is written in Scriptures in the last days before Christ returns that it might be fulfilled. you all are adding and changing God words to fit your ungodly lifestyles.
I have seen where the blind have led the blind in this forum the Ancestors were blind to the truth in (God), and have led you all who are blind to believe in them, and so I have tried to bring light into this dark forum that people may see the truth before its to late. For Christ will come back in the clouds, and some will go with Him to everlasting joy, and others to everlasting shame for they have denied the truth in Christ, and  into a fiery pit of judgement and hell. Wake up people, wake up for all that is written in the scriptures are coming to pass on the earth.
You all can write against this message, but as for me I will see you all at the time appointed at the judgement of  Christ, but even so death comes to all of us, and we will face Him to everlasting Joy, or into everlasting shame and Hell. Peace I leave with you all who have come out from this ancestor worship of self, nature, and all other forms of idol worship to deny the true God our Lord Jesus Christ for He is God, out of Zion Jesus is God the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit to deny this is to deny the truth For Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life. Come out of that cult call Jehovah wittness.
People add a hundred years to your life; where will you be?
Every material thing we see like cars, watches, houses were made by men, but yet the earth, man and the heavens was a big bang called evolution how stupid. Can there be creation without a creator? The Heavens and the Earth shows the glory of Gods hand work.
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Nazarite
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AfricaSpeaks.co m


« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2004, 03:10:04 PM »

Peace Be Unto All.actually,not to stray from de subject,but you christians are NOT the same as the persecuted christians,for they were called the "little fishes"and represented the Piscean age,but this Mainline Paulianity lost its Root,InI Rasta found and Know from whence it came!Namaste

Essene Rasta
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Selassie I /Empress Menen-Y'shua/Mary Magdalene,Perfect Balance
out_of_Zion
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« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2004, 03:23:49 PM »

IlovGod,

I'd first like to applaud you for pointing out a very valid fact, that whites persecute whites and blacks persecute blacks when it comes to Christianity.  Jesus did say to his followers "I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you." -John 15:19

It's common for people these days to believe the trinity because of the fact that Jehovah's name has been removed from the Bible 7,311 and replaced by "LORD," which you refer to as the trinity.  Do consider though that the word "trinity" appears in the bible a total of zero times and that not one apostle wrote of it, nor did Paul.  It wasn't even a part of the "Christian" faith until 325 AD when Christianity became corrupt by becoming a religion at the council of Niscea.  The one person who opposed the idea of the trinity, Arius, was slugged in the face and all the others fled the meeting screaming and plugging their ears because he (Arius) was a so-called heretic.  I'm not going to get dogmatic and write a treatise on the trinity here for you because I've already done that before on this site and most trinitarians don't really have much regard for scriptures because the trinity itself is not scripturally based.  Jesus said that such things would happen though at Matthew 15:9, "It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, because they teach the commandments of men as doctrines."

Here's a link to expose the trinity as the construed theological nonsense it is:
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_03.htm

I also see that you, like many, refer to Jehovah's organization as a cult.  You may be interested to know that those first century disciples you spoke of that were thrown to the lions in the coloseum were also called a cult and that the definition of a cult is "a system or community of religious and ritual worship, especially one focusing upon a single diety or spirit."  Since we profess to follow our King and Redeemer Jesus Christ, we would indeed in that sense be a cult.  So would every other sect in Christendom.

Prayerfully consider these scriptures, though, and look at how Jehovah's Witnesses are faithfully fulfilling them.  We know that the ENTIRE Bible is "inspired of God, and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight..." -2 Timothy 3:16.  So do not make the mistake that exortations and principles of worship from Jehovah God in the Hebrew scriptures are not equally as valid today (with the exception of the Law Code).

1) God prohibits the use of images, icons, statues in worship
"And you must take good care of your souls, because you did not see any form on the day of Jehovah speaking to you in Horeb out of the middle of the fire, that you may not act ruiniously and may not make for yourselves a carved image, the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female, the representation of any beast that is in the earth, the representation of any winged bird of the heavens, the representation of anything moving on the ground, the representation of any fish that is in the waters under the earth; and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow to them and serve them, which Jehovah God has apportioned to all the people under the heavens." -Dueteronomy 4:15-19

Compare this scripture with the "Christian" use of the cross, "Jesus fish," doves on license plates to represent some Christian-idea.  Clearly God does not approve of this.

2) True Christians will not be militaristic or nationalistic
"Then Jesus said to him: 'Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.'" -Matthew 26:52

Does your church support politicians?  Many churches do.  Many feel that God blesses George W. Bush in his decision to go to war against countries that they consider "evil."  This is clearly un-Christ like behavior.
See also: 2 Timothy 2:23,24 and Isaiah 2:2-4

3) The soul dies
"For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality.  As the one dies, so the other dies; so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity.  All are going to one place.  They have come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust." -Ecclesiastes 3:19,20
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the rememberance of thehas been forgotten.  All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going." -Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
"Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs.  His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.

So we clearly see that Jehovah tells us after we die we do not go on to live in a spirit realm, but rather that we simply cease to exist.  Does your church teach that all the dead live on in heaven?  If so, these must be difficult scriptures to read and maintain any true semblance of true faith.

4) True Christians are to remain separate from worldly engagements and political activism
"If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own.  Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you."

Jesus and his disciples preached the Kingdom and saught first the kingdom, maintaining nuetrality towards the ruling governments at that time.  Do you involve yourself with politics or keep in mind that God is setting up a government that will "crush and put an end to all these kingdoms" that are currently failing so miserably today?

5) Unrepentant sinners should not be a part of the congregation
"Do not be misled!  Bad associations spoil useful habits.  Wake up to soberness in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some are without knowledge of God.  I am speaking to move you to shame." -1 Corinthians 15:33,34
"What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingom?  Do not be misled.  Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulturers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom." 1 Corinthians 6:9,10
"In my letter I wrote you to QUIT MIXING COMPANY with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters." -1 Corinthians 5:9

Is your church filled with unrepentant and willful sinners?  Surely Jehovah and Jesus could not bless a congregation that is composed of people that only do lip service to him when they congregate together only to disperse into the sinful world and be a partner to its corruption.  Those that refuse to conform their lives to the Way should not be allowed to contaminate those that will.

6) Jehovah names the true faith
"You are my witnesses,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One.  Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.  I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior." -Isaiah 43:10,11
"Symeon has related throughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name...in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all nations, people who are called by his name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, known from old." -Acts 15:14,17,18

Does your church know and use God's name, be it in the form Je-ho-vah, Yah-weh, or Ye-ho-wah?  Jehovah makes it known that his followers would do this and declare abroad the excellencies of his name.

7) Jehovah God's true worshippers will have unity
"Now I exort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought." -1 Corinthians 1:10
"One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons, who is over all and through all and in all." -Ephesians 4:4-6

I have yet to find an "Christian" faith that is not split into sects. Each faith is split in to many denominations split into subdenominations and so on and on and they all conflict with one another, far from being "united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."  Jehovah God's faithful witnesses have a unity throughout the congregation that was only found in the first century congregations and throughout the witnesses down through the centuries.  Jesus said wisdom is proved righteous by its works, and surely a unified organization is proof positive of Jehovah's blessing contrasted with the awful conflict of Christendom, which will undoubtedly destroy itself, as they have throughout time, "Christian" vs. "Christian"
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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
ILovGod
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AfricaSpeaks.co m


« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2004, 08:06:59 PM »

Out of zion: First I must say that you are right the word Trinity is not in the bible, but do you have to see the word to believe it?
Jesus said that He is God, Jesus said that I and the Father are one and the same, in Revelation 1:8 Jesus said that I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Jesus said He is the Almighty, Jehoviah God. God said in Genesis 1:26 Let us make man, Jesus said (I AM); the word in which we get the verb 'to be' YAHWEH, so We see the trinity in Gods words over and over in scriptures.
Many people today who call themselves christian are not true christians until their lives are lived as those who were killed for their faith, who lived their lives in Christ likeness, in love, forgiveness, heavenly minded, not in material things, or places, for thoses who love the world the love of God is not in him.
We live by the Grace of God to eternal life, not by works least any man should boast. How will you know how much good works you have done to enter into heaven?
We are save by what Jesus have done on the Cross as we confess our sins and ask Christ into our lives this gets us into a right relationship with God which was lost by Adam and Eve sin, but once we are save we are called to do Good works not to be save, because we are already, but to live lives as Christ lived on this earth, and we do this not by the flesh, but by the Holy Spirit that lives in us.
As is written in the Commandment we are not to make images of things in heaven above or things on the earth, nor bow down and worship them. this is were we differ from the catholic church and in many other areas for the catholic church have also persecuted christians.
should christian be involve in politics? yes if you have no christians voting for a person who wants to stop abortion then it will never stop, because we have other people who will vote to keep abortion legal, but if we vote for people who holds to our belief we should not be silent. We still live in this world and our opinions and votes should be heard it may make a difference.
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2004, 09:04:16 PM »

I'm glad you have a zeal for God, but much of what you say is not supported by the scriptures. Further, you did not even begin to address the 7 factors I laid out very clearly and boldly that show the erring ways of Babylonian Christendom.  Remember what Babel means:  confusion.  You see nothing but confusion in Christendom and it fails to adhere to the scriptures as I have highlighted above.  

You ask me, do I have to see a teaching in the scriptures before I'll believe it?  You better believe it!  Consider the account in Acts 17 where Paul comes to preach to the Christians in Berea.  They were unwilling to listen to PAUL (!)  until he used PROOF from the scriptures to back and support what he said.  Do you think I would treat your words any differently?  The only authority we have is God's word, the scriptures.

"Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."  -Acts 17:11

As Jehovah's faithful and true witnesses we always use scriptures when teaching Bible truths.  You cannot simply tell someone "God is a trinity" or any other teaching without supporting it by scriptures or else you are teaching YOUR theology and not God's.  For instance, you type "Jesus said that he is God."  Nowhere in the scriptures is that so!  

Quite on the contrary, when you take scriptures at face value as they were really written - with Jehovah's name in the place it should be - Jesus made it abundantly clear that he was not God.  He was the Son of God.

Consider these scriptures:
"Jesus said to them: 'If God were your father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here.  Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.  Why is it you do not know what I am speaking?  Because you cannot listen to my word." -John 8:42,43

"because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." -John 12:49

"You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you.  If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am." -John 14:28

All three of these scriptures in the gospel of John make it definitively clear that Jesus is subject to Jehovah God, the creator of all.  

The scripture you listed from Revelation 1:8, the Alpha and Omega - look back in your Bible.  The word Lord is in all caps, LORD, which indicates that originally the tetragrammaton, YHWH, was there, and it is talking about Jehovah, not Jesus.  With the proper word in place of Lord, let the impact of the pure scripture touch your heart,

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says Jehovah God, 'the one who was and the one who is coming, the Almighty."

And only Jehovah is the Almighty God, "El Shaddai" in Hebrew, at Genesis 17:1.  Jesus Christ is not referred to as "El Shaddai" like his Father, but is instead called "El Gibbohr" at Isaiah 9:6 when they are prophetically referring to him.  El Gibbohr means "Mighty God."

Consider also Psalm 83:18,
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth."

Quote:
"We live by the Grace of God to eternal life, not by works least any man should boast. How will you know how much good works you have done to enter into heaven?"

I do agree that salvation comes through grace, but what justifies our salvation?  Two things.  Faith AND works.  I do not know where you are extracting these things from the previous post of mine because I do not believe that we need a certain number of good works to "enter heaven" - or the "Kingdom of God" to be far more accurate on the matter.  Certainly, though, if we are true Christians are faith will be shown positive by our works.  It's a sharp contrast from the "once saved, always saved" crowd who proceeds to "[turn] the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and [prove] false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 4)

Do consider this scripture from James though that indicates that we do need works to make our faith ALIVE:

"But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is inactive?  Was not Abraham declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?  You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected." -James 2:19-22

"You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone...as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." -James 2:24,26

What works should one focus upon?  Jesus did command a certain work from each and every one of his followers:

"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.  And look!  I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."  -Matthew 28:19,20

So we're commanded by Jesus in a nutshell to do two things:
1) Love God & our neighbor with our whole heart, our whole soul, and our whole mind. (Matthew 22:37-40)
2) Preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of God (Mt 28:19,20 / Mt 24:14)

Quote:
"should christian be involve in politics? yes if you have no christians voting for a person who wants to stop abortion then it will never stop, because we have other people who will vote to keep abortion legal, but if we vote for people who holds to our belief we should not be silent. We still live in this world and our opinions and votes should be heard it may make a difference."

Again, here, you're preaching to me from your own mind and not from the Bible.  I do sympathsize with your feelings on abortion and that's wonderful you feel that way, but who rules this world, I ask you?  

"The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." - 1 John 5:19

Your intentions are noble, but Jesus taught that we should be NO PART of this world.  It's tragic that babies are murdered before they are born, but do you really think that voting for politicians that are USING YOU FOR VOTES is really going to change that?  If abortion ever were made illegal, and it won't be as long as we live in Satan's system of things, people would still abort their babies illegally, just as they have all throughout time.

I encourage you to reflect upon the promises Jehovah makes to us, of ushering in "a new heavens and a new earth" (2 Peter 3:13).  While it will not cure the problems that afflict us now, the hope is an anchor for our souls, our hearts, and our minds.   May Jehovah bless you.
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ILovGod
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« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2004, 05:53:36 PM »

Out of zion:
Jehovah's witnesses and their view of Jesus Christ

What exactly is their view of Jesus Christ?

1. The Jesus that Jehovah's witnesses preach is vastly different from the Jesus in the bible. Jehovah's regard Jesus as the first and only being directly created by Jehovah God (John 1:1-3). They believe that Jehovah God has never had any personal contact with creation, but was indirectly responsible for the creation of all beings by empowering Jesus to bring the physical universe into existence. It's interesting to note that the Gnostics-who were denounced by the early church-held strikingly similar views.
Jehovah;s witnesses as yourself deny that Jesus is God Almighty read Phil.2:6-7) you'll claim that Jesus is not all powerful, He is not all knowing, and that He is not all present. Curiously enough, however, they deny these same attributes about their own Jehovah God!

2. Jehovah's Witnesses deny that man has a soul or spirit that has conscious existence after death. What does the bible say?
To Jehovah's the word "soul" is interchangeable with the word "human" In other words, they dont believe that humans possess souls which are seperate and distinct from the body; rather, Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that humans are souls! This explains why Jehovah's Witnesses believe that a person ceases to exist upon death.
The Bible, however, makes it clear that everyone has an inner being which survives after physical death. Matthew 10:28 demonstrates that scriptures distinguishes the soul from the body, thereby disproving what Jehovah's Witnesses are clearly teaching. It reads: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul" (NIV).
John 11:26 states that whoever believe in Jesus will never die, which explains Paul's statement in Romans 8:38 that not even death can seperate us from God's love. Conversely, Revelation 20 tells us that the unsaved will experience eternal torment. By denying the reality of eternal punishment, Jehovah's Witnesses like you say that this passage can't be taken seriously. Well, the truth of the matter is that Jesus not only taught us of heaven, but also taught us that hell is a tangible reality (Matt. 13:40-42; 18:8-9; 25:41.46).

3. Are Jehovah's Witnesses False Prophets?
Jehovah's Witnesses freely admit that they have made failed predictions in the past. Is this enough to categorize them as false prophets?
Deuteronomy 18:22 states that a false prophet is one who, in the name of the Lord makes a prophecy which does not take place and is not true.
First of all, the Watchtower were not considered by the organization as "optional" In other words, to remain a Jehovah's Witnesses  in good standing, you must wholeheartedly believe in and uphold these prophecies by the Watchtower. They were certainly not expendable.
You see, the prophecies themselves concerned important events holding significant implications. For example, the Watchtower initially proclaimed that Jesus second coming happened invisibly in the year 1874. Today, Jehovah's witnesses believed this even actually took place in the year 1914. It's important to note that Paul issued very strong warnings about these setting false dates concerning Christ's return (2 Thes. 2:1-3).
The Watchtower's false prophecies have produced nothing but despair and disillusionment, and have caused many Jehovah's Witnesses to resort to drastic measures which they would not have taken place otherwise. Numbers of Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, quit their jobs and liquidated their personal belongings as they anticipated the world to end in the year 1975. Needless to say, that prediction never materialized.
Well when all the facts are considered, it becomes readily apparent that Jehovah's Witnesses are false prophets who will fill people "with false hopes" (Jer. 23:16).

4. Are The Jehovah's Witnesses Right About The Trinity?
Jehovah's Witnesses  are the most vocal critics in our society of the doctrine of the Trinity. Are their criticisms of the Trinity right?
In 1989 the Jehovah's Witnesses published a booklet entitled should You Believe in the Trinity? Although the Watchtower Society has always attacked the Trinity as a pagan doctrine, this booklet was their first attempt at a systematic refutation of the Trinity. Some of the major flaws with the arguments that they ues in this booklet is: First of all, the booklet continues the time-honored tradition of the Watchtower to misrepresent the Christian scholars and church fathers, with numerous quotations taken out of context. For example, the booklet actually tries to argue that the churc father Tertullian did not believe in the Trinity, when, in fact Tertullian was one of the first to use the word "trinity."
Second, the book repeats the usual tired antitrinitarian arguments against the Trinity, for example, that the doctrine of the Trinity was developed in the fourth century. Of course, the Witnesses' own doctrine concerning God and Christ was developed in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, but that doesn't seem to bother them- they undoubtedly don't want to be confused by facts.
Third, the booklet contains the standard arguments against the biblical teachings that Jesus was, in fact, God, focusing especially on the fact that Jesus was in submission to God the Father- as if this has escaped the attention of the Christian church for all of these centuries! The Bible, in fact, teaches both that Jesus was God and that, as the son of God, and especially as a man, Jesus submitted Himself voluntarily to the Father and seeks to bring glory and honor to the Father. Trinitarians affirm both of these biblical truths- Jehovah's Witnesses do not.
The jehovah's Witnesses' arguments against the Trinity might sound persuasive at first but, on careful examination, can be clearly seen to be without substance. As usual, they give you the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie. On the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity, that's the CRI perspective from Hank Hanegraaff.
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ILovGod
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« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2004, 06:25:17 PM »

Out of Zion, If there is no heaven then we are most miserable and wihout hope, what is the point Jesus coming to die for us to save us from sin?, what is salvation if there is no heaven? what is the point trying to be good moral people if we all are going to die and its all over for us. Another lie from Jehovah's Witnesses, but yes there is hope and there is a heaven for those who put their hope, and trust in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

True Christians will not be militaristic or nationalistic.
But in the old testament God used the Isrealite to distroy evil, ungodly people. Will you let someone get hurt if you can stop it, so the war in Iraq was just. This man killed, tortured, and rape his own people.

Politics what you said in your writing on the 4. Answer you gived has nothing to do with politics, but rather Jesus said in Matt.22:21 Render therefore unto caesar the things which are caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. We still live in this fallen world and we have a part to play in it, or will you stop using money?, will you stop paying taxes and using banks?

God prohibits images, icons, statues in worship.
Why was this command given in the commandments, its because God knows men hearts, and man will worship anything but God, and this was happening right after the Exodus from Egypt, and we see in this forum people worshiping nature, but we do not worship the cross, fish symbol, Dove, or any other thing but God Almighty. We do this to show people that we worship the Lord God and that we love Him because He first Loved us even showing His Love by what He did on the Cross Awesome Pure Love from God.
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2004, 09:40:39 PM »

IlovGod, just as I come here to learn about Rastafari and gain a TRUE perspective on it, you should go to a Jehovah's Witness if you want to gain a TRUE perspective on our faith, because by your comments it is very evident all of what you have heard is from 3rd party liars, or from apostates.  It's not a very considerate thing to do to fire words at me that are not true teachings of my faith nor things that I have said.

We certainly believe in eternal life.  That is the gift Jesus Christ promised to those who obeyed his commands and exercised faith in the ransom sacrifice.  If we did not believe in eternal life, like the saducees of Jesus' day who did not believe in the resurrection that provides eternal life (Acts 24:15), then what you say would be true - and that would be pretty pointless, I certainly do agree.  

However, there are two hopes for where that eternal life will be spent.  Revelation clearly sets forth that 144,000 will rule as "kings, priests, and judges" during Christ's milennial reign (Revelation 7 & 14).  

Of such ones, Paul writes in Revelation,
"And I saw, and look! the Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and fourty-four thousand having hame and the name of his father written on their foreheads.  And I heard a sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps.  And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures (see Daniel 7:8) and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and fourty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth." -Revelation 14:1-4

Contrasted with this is the "great crowd out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tounges" whose reward is eternal life on paradise earth.  Compare  (and once again note that I my entire post is using SCRIPTURES):

"For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth...the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." -Psalm 37:9,11

"But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off.  The righeous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it." -Psalm 37:28,29

"Happy are the mild-tempered ones (or "meek," KJV), since they will inherit the earth." -Matthew 5:5
---
Addressing the rest:

It'd be nice if you actually read and reasoned on what I typed to you instead of evangelizing me with nonsense pasted in from some so-called Biblical scholar.  I'm not going to have a discussion with "him," I say sarcastically; I was addressing you.  I provided you that link on the trinity through the watchtower website, but you clearly didn't read that, so I'm just following policy.  I've done a lot of study of the trinity and all it has proven to be is a pagan doctrine that a bunch of Roman men cooked up in the fourth century so that they could maintain a foothold over all their congregation and leave part of God "above the understanding" of the layman.  Again, remember what Jesus said to the pharisees regarding such action:

"It is in vain that they continue worshipping me, for they teach the commandments of men as doctrines."  -Matthew 15:9

My point about "El Shaddai (Genesis 17:1)" and "El Gibbohr (Isaiah 9:6)" between Jehovah, El Shaddai being GOD ALMIGHTY and El Gibbohr for Jesus Christ being MIGHTY GOD is IRREFUTABLE evidence proving that Jehovah is not only separate from Christ, but mightier in power.  Can you think of any way of dancing around the confliction in terms there to support the farcical trinity doctrine?  No!  Neither can any other Christian in Christendom.  But then again, going to the Hebrew language is usually out of bounds for them since they only believe what they are told to believe by their pastors and priests.  

Quote:
"True Christians will not be militaristic or nationalistic.
But in the old testament God used the Isrealite to distroy evil, ungodly people. Will you let someone get hurt if you can stop it, so the war in Iraq was just. This man killed, tortured, and rape his own people."

So you've come around to change your opinion here a little?  You're right.  And yet you find "Christians" participating in the military under the brainwashing of the US Government who has portrayed themselves as the HEROES TO THE KNOWN WORLD in history textbooks, when in reality they are TYRANTS.  Just ask a few of the educated sistren on this site who are true history buffs; that is, they know true history, not the whitewashed trash the serve in the school system.  Yes, Saddam ran a terrible and ugly regime, but was that why Bush went to war there?  No.  He claimed they had something to do with 911, which we have already found out (surprise, surprise) is not true, and he also claimed there were weapons of mass destruction, which is also not true!  He went there for three letters, three letters that will pay him immensely in under the table interests when he is out of office:  O-I-L.  So don't wrap this dominant and Satanic regime that is the US Military in a martyr's cloak.  It's self serving and imperialistic.  Simple.  Consider yourself a few degrees less naive now.

Contrast this with what Jehovah instructed the Israelites to do:  kill Baal worshippers and others that were practicing pagan rites that included child sacrifice, cannibalism, and acts of sodomy.  I fail to see any similarity...at all.  Killing Saddam may be justified (and it may not depending upon one's view of capital punishment), but the method the US took was deceitful and they killed completely innocent people.  And last, but most hilariously not least, Bush is hardly a prophet of God like Moses, Isaiah, or Jeremiah.  In fact, I sometimes wonder if he really even believes in God or if it's just part of his mind game with the mindless American public.

Quote:
"Politics what you said in your writing on the 4. Answer you gived has nothing to do with politics, but rather Jesus said in Matt.22:21 Render therefore unto caesar the things which are caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. We still live in this fallen world and we have a part to play in it, or will you stop using money?, will you stop paying taxes and using banks?"

In all politeness, what is your point here?  We abstain from political involvement but pay our taxes.  I completely agree.  So does every watchtower article or any witness I've ever associated with.  Are you misunderstanding something?

Quote:
"God prohibits images, icons, statues in worship.
Why was this command given in the commandments, its because God knows men hearts, and man will worship anything but God, and this was happening right after the Exodus from Egypt, and we see in this forum people worshiping nature, but we do not worship the cross, fish symbol, Dove, or any other thing but God Almighty. We do this to show people that we worship the Lord God and that we love Him because He first Loved us even showing His Love by what He did on the Cross Awesome Pure Love from God."

It does not say that he "prohibits worship" of them.  No, he forbids the very use of them!  Saying "You must not make for yourself a carved image" is pretty clear.  NONE SHOULD EXIST!  It's a difficult thing for us as physical beings to fully comprehend and put this into practice because so much of our human experience is visual and tactile.  We like to see something to focus our mind upon when we pray it seems.  When I was raised a Catholic, I would sometimes pray with my rosary beads even when I wasn't praying the rosary.  Something about them seemed to put me in a spiritual mindset.  But Jehovah doesn't want us associating his spirit with the inferior physical things of this world.  He cannot be contained within any single image, statue, or icon.

You'll probably get upset at this, but it's a widely accepted view by most scholars that Jesus died on an upright stake and not a cross.  Here's an excerpt from a highly regarded Biblical scholar (and non-witness, for your peace of mind), W.E. Vine:

"The shape of the 'cross,' two beams at right angels, 'had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt.  By the middle of the 3rd century AD the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith.  In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols.  Hence the Tau or T in its most frequent form, with the cross piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ."  -Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, W.E. Vine, Vol I p. 256

So while your intentions are certainly noble, using a cross to remember the death of Christ, it isn't necessarily a Christian tradition.  The cross came from pagan worship and was integrated into Christendom over 300 years after Jesus' death.  Besides that, why mince words and test the word of Jehovah?  If he forbids idolatry, why would you bring crosses - which are idols, no two ways about it - into your worship?  Perhaps you can be the first in your congregation to reform that aspect of your worship and show them what you learned about the history of the cross.
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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
ILovGod
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« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2004, 09:06:19 PM »

Out of Zion,
1. I have a true perspective already of the Jehovah's Witnesses, I just written the truth on that organization. what I did write is true teachings of your faith look into it, and it is not a third party lie, I had already known this and so I wrote it for you to know do some research of your faith.

2. You said that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in eternal life, but it does not go with biblical teachings. If someone cease to exists, and they believe in Christ then their is no eternal life for them right?
3. Paul did not write any message in Revelation, but John only. You mention Matthew 5:5 That the Meek will possess the earth, but will you deny in the same chapter MAtthew 5:3 where it mensions heaven?, how about Revelation 7:13-17.
4. The Trinity is teach in the scriptures by Jesus himself when he said if you see me you have seen the father, Jesus said I and the Father am one( John 10:30), also read John 5:21-47 it is a strange thing to see that the scribes and pharisees have risen up again in the Jehovah's witnesses for this is the same arguments they had with Jesus they deny Him as God, they deny him as Savior, and you can read this in John 10:30 when Jesus said, I and the Father are one They wanted to stone Him for saying the same thing we Christians are saying read also Matthew 9:3-7, Matthew 12:32 of the Holy Ghost being God.
You quoted Matthew 15:9, but you do not understand what it means, because you take it out of context read the whole chapter, and see that these people where worshiping Jesus with their mouth only and not from their heart which makes it a vain, or useless worship.
5. Another lie is that Bush went to war for Oil are you there to see him gain from this? He may not be a prophet, but I'm sure God heard the prayers of Christians, saw the tears of the Iraq people who suffer under this evil ruler, and God could of used Bush to set them free from an evil dictator?
6. My point is that you wrote that True Christian are to remain seperate from worldly engagements and political Activism it is what you said right after that, that does not make any sense. This has nothing to do with politics nor staying away from it. what has to do with politics is in Matthew 22:21 When Jesus said Render unto Ceaser who was Ceaser he was part of a Goverment system and Jesus said render unto the Goverment what is due them, and unto God the things of God. We still live on this earth and we must take part in politics to help keep evil leaders away from ruling us like Sadam, or Papa Doc. in Haiti.
7. God Prohibits Images, Icons, Statues in Worship.
If you keep reading the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 you will see that God do prohibits worshiping them For it is written that we shall not bow down to them, nor serve them.
You said Jehovah doesn't want us associating his spirit with inferior physical things of this world. The cross has nothing to do with associating Gods spirit with inferior things, It is the visible Christ who died on an physical earthly cross or tree from this world.
You said I probably will get upset at this, that Jesus was crucified on an upright stake and not a cross, well this may come as a shock to you, but I had known this a long time ago I'm not a new convert in Christ, you see if I was worshiping a cross, if it was a wrong thing to have then I will be disappointed, but you see it does not matter if it was a stake, or a cross the important thing is that Christ came and died for our sins and rose again for our salvation of eternal life. And so I wear my cross in boldness towards the Love God had shown to me by his son and Lord Jesus Christ our God.
Glory to God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit Forever more. Trinity all three = One God, and God teach us this as with a Husband and Wife where two have join themselves together and become one flesh in marriage.
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