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25857 Posts in 9934 Topics by 982 Members Latest Member: - Ferguson Most online today: 336 (July 03, 2005, 06:25:30 PM)
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2004, 07:51:56 PM »

Regarding Ezekiel 40:

Ezekiel's vision of the temple (40:1-48:35).

We come to the year 593 B.C.E. It is the 14th year since the destruction of Solomon's temple, and the repentant ones among the exiles are in need of encouragement and hope. Jehovah transports Ezekiel in a vision to the land of Israel and sets him down on a very high mountain. Here, in vision, he sees a temple and "the structure of a city to the south." An angel instructs him: "Tell everything that you are seeing to the house of Israel." (40:2, 4) Then he shows Ezekiel all the details of the temple and its courtyards, measuring the walls, the gates, the guard chambers, the dining rooms, and the temple itself, with its Holy and Most Holy. He takes Ezekiel to the east gate. "And, look! the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the direction of the east, and his voice was like the voice of vast waters; and the earth itself shone because of his glory." (43:2) The angel fully instructs Ezekiel concerning the House (or temple); the altar and its sacrifices; the rights and duties of the priests, the Levites, and the chieftain; and the apportioning of the land.

The angel brings Ezekiel back to the entrance of the House, where the prophet sees water going forth from the threshold of the House toward the east, by the south side of the altar. It starts as a trickle but gets bigger and bigger until it becomes a torrent. Then it flows into the Dead Sea, where fish come to life and a fishing industry springs up. On either side of the torrent, trees provide food and healing for the people. The vision then gives the inheritances of the 12 tribes, not overlooking the alien resident and the chieftain, and describes the holy city to the south, with its 12 gates named after the tribes. The city is to be called by a most glorious name: "Jehovah Himself Is There."-48:35.

So you see, this is a restoration prophecy for Israel's time, not a prophecy of a modern day temple.  The temple represents pure worship coming back to the Israelites.  Any Zionist fulfillment of the temple's existence is utterly irrelevant, as the Zionist movement occuring to-day is not from Jah God anyway, being propaged by wars, hatred, and misinterpretation of scriptures.
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2004, 08:03:50 PM »

wcia,

JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, not GOD THE SON.

Because of Jesus' references to God as his Father, certain opposing Jews leveled the charge of blasphemy against him, saying, "You, although being a man, make yourself a god." (Joh 10:33) Most translations here say "God"; Torrey's translation lowercases the word as "god," while the interlinear reading of The Emphatic Diaglott says "a god." Support for the rendering "a god" is found principally in Jesus' own answer, in which he quoted from Psalm 82:1-7. As can be seen, this text did not refer to persons as being called "God," but "gods" and "sons of the Most High."

According to the context, those whom Jehovah called "gods" and "sons of the Most High" in this psalm were Israelite judges who had been practicing injustice, requiring that Jehovah himself now judge 'in the middle of such gods.' (Ps 82:1-6, 8) Since Jehovah applied these terms to those men, Jesus was certainly guilty of no blasphemy in saying, "I am God's Son." Whereas the works of those judicial "gods" belied their being "sons of the Most High," Jesus' works consistently proved him to be in union, in harmonious accord and relationship, with his Father.-Joh 10:34-38.

Why called "the Word"?

The name (or, perhaps, title) "the Word" (John 1:1) apparently identifies the function that God's firstborn Son performed after other intelligent creatures were formed. A similar expression is found at Exodus 4:16, where Jehovah says to Moses concerning his brother Aaron: "And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him." As spokesman for God's chief representative on earth, Aaron served as "a mouth" for Moses. Likewise with the Word, or Logos (Greek), who became Jesus Christ. Jehovah evidently used his Son to convey information and instructions to others of his family of spirit sons, even as he used that Son to deliver his message to humans on earth. Showing that he was God's Word, or Spokesman, Jesus said to his Jewish listeners: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality."-Joh 7:16, 17; compare Joh 12:50; 18:37.

Doubtless on many occasions during his prehuman existence as the Word, Jesus acted as Jehovah's Spokesman to persons on earth. While certain texts refer to Jehovah as though directly speaking to humans, other texts make clear that he did so through an angelic representative. (Compare Ex 3:2-4 with Ac 7:30, 35; also Ge 16:7-11, 13; 22:1, 11, 12, 15-18.) Reasonably, in the majority of such cases God spoke through the Word. He likely did so in Eden, for on two of the three occasions where mention is made of God's speaking there, the record specifically shows someone was with Him, undoubtedly his Son. (Ge 1:26-30; 2:16, 17; 3:8-19, 22) The angel who guided Israel through the wilderness and whose voice the Israelites were strictly to obey because 'Jehovah's name was within him,' may therefore have been God's Son, the Word.-Ex 23:20-23; compare Jos 5:13-15.

This does not mean that the Word is the only angelic representative through whom Jehovah has spoken. The inspired statements at Acts 7:53, Galatians 3:19, and Hebrews 2:2, 3 make clear that the Law covenant was transmitted to Moses by angelic sons of God other than his Firstborn.

Jesus continues to bear the name "The Word of God" since his return to heavenly glory.-Re 19:13, 16.

Why do some Bible translations refer to Jesus as "God," while others say he was "a god"?

Some translations render John 1:1 as saying: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Literally the Greek text reads: "In beginning was the word, and the word was toward the god, and god was the word." The translator must supply capitals as needed in the language into which he translates the text. It is clearly proper to capitalize "God" in translating the phrase "the god," since this must identify the Almighty God with whom the Word was. But the capitalizing of the word "god" in the second case does not have the same justification.

The New World Translation renders this text: "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." True, there is no indefinite article (corresponding to "a" or "an") in the original Greek text. But this does not mean one should not be used in translation, for Koine, or common Greek, had no indefinite article. Hence, throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures, translators are obliged to use the indefinite article or not according to their understanding of the meaning of the text. All English translations of those Scriptures do contain the indefinite article hundreds of times; yet most do not use it at John 1:1. Nevertheless, its use in the rendering of this text has sound basis.

First, it should be noted that the text itself shows that the Word was "with God," hence could not be God, that is, be the Almighty God. (Note also vs 2, which would be unnecessary if vs 1 actually showed the Word to be God.) Additionally, the word for "god" (Gr., the·os´) in its second occurrence in the verse is significantly without the definite article "the" (Gr., ho). Regarding this fact, Ernst Haenchen, in a commentary on the Gospel of John (chapters 1-6), stated: "[the·os´] and [ho the·os´] ('god, divine' and 'the God') were not the same thing in this period. . . . In fact, for the . . . Evangelist, only the Father was 'God' ([ho the·os´]; cf. 17:3); 'the Son' was subordinate to him (cf. 14:28). But that is only hinted at in this passage because here the emphasis is on the proximity of the one to the other . . . . It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ . . . Thus, in both Philippians and John 1:1 it is not a matter of a dialectical relationship between two-in-one, but of a personal union of two entities."-John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110.

After giving as a translation of John 1:1c "and divine (of the category divinity) was the Word," Haenchen goes on to state: "In this instance, the verb 'was' ([en]) simply expresses predication. And the predicate noun must accordingly be more carefully observed: [the·os´] is not the same thing as [ho the·os´] ('divine' is not the same thing as 'God')." (pp. 110, 111) Elaborating on this point, Philip B. Harner brought out that the grammatical construction in John 1:1 involves an anarthrous predicate, that is, a predicate noun without the definite article "the," preceding the verb, which construction is primarily qualitative in meaning and indicates that "the logos has the nature of theos." He further stated: "In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun [the·os´] cannot be regarded as definite." (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Other translators, also recognizing that the Greek term has qualitative force and describes the nature of the Word, therefore render the phrase: "the Word was divine."-AT; Sd; compare Mo; see NW appendix, p. 1579.

The Hebrew Scriptures are consistently clear in showing that there is but one Almighty God, the Creator of all things and the Most High, whose name is Jehovah. (Ge 17:1; Isa 45:18; Ps 83:18) For that reason Moses could say to the nation of Israel: "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force." (De 6:4, 5) The Christian Greek Scriptures do not contradict this teaching that had been accepted and believed by God's servants for thousands of years, but instead they support it. (Mr 12:29; Ro 3:29, 30; 1Co 8:6; Eph 4:4-6; 1Ti 2:5) Jesus Christ himself said, "The Father is greater than I am" and referred to the Father as his God, "the only true God." (Joh 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Mr 15:34; Re 1:1; 3:12) On numerous occasions Jesus expressed his inferiority and subordination to his Father. (Mt 4:9, 10; 20:23; Lu 22:41, 42; Joh 5:19; 8:42; 13:16) Even after Jesus' ascension into heaven his apostles continued to present the same picture.-1Co 11:3; 15:20, 24-28; 1Pe 1:3; 1Jo 2:1; 4:9, 10.

These facts give solid support to a translation such as "the Word was a god" at John 1:1. The Word's preeminent position among God's creatures as the Firstborn, the one through whom God created all things, and as God's Spokesman, gives real basis for his being called "a god" or mighty one. The Messianic prophecy at Isaiah 9:6 foretold that he would be called "Mighty God," though not the Almighty God, and that he would be the "Eternal Father" of all those privileged to live as his subjects. The zeal of his own Father, "Jehovah of armies," would accomplish this. (Isa 9:7) Certainly if God's Adversary, Satan the Devil, is called a "god" (2Co 4:4) because of his dominance over men and demons (1Jo 5:19; Lu 11:14-18), then with far greater reason and propriety is God's firstborn Son called "a god," "the only-begotten god" as the most reliable manuscripts of John 1:18 call him.

When charged by opposers with 'making himself a god,' Jesus' reply was: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "You are gods"'? If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, I am God's Son?" (Joh 10:31-37) Jesus there quoted from Psalm 82, in which human judges, whom God condemned for not executing justice, were called "gods." (Ps 82:1, 2, 6, 7) Thus, Jesus showed the unreasonableness of charging him with blasphemy for stating that he was, not God, but God's Son.

This charge of blasphemy arose as a result of Jesus' having said: "I and the Father are one." (Joh 10:30) That this did not mean that Jesus claimed to be the Father or to be God is evident from his reply, already partly considered. The oneness to which Jesus referred must be understood in harmony with the context of his statement. He was speaking of his works and his care of the "sheep" who would follow him. His works, as well as his words, demonstrated that there was unity, not disunity and disharmony, between him and his Father, a point his reply went on to emphasize. (Joh 10:25, 26, 37, 38; compare Joh 4:34; 5:30; 6:38-40; 8:16-18.) As regards his "sheep," he and his Father were likewise at unity in their protecting such sheeplike ones and leading them to everlasting life. (Joh 10:27-29; compare Eze 34:23, 24.) Jesus' prayer on behalf of the unity of all his disciples, including future ones, shows that the oneness, or union, between Jesus and his Father was not as to identity of person but as to purpose and action. In this way Jesus' disciples could "all be one," just as he and his Father are one.-Joh 17:20-23.

In harmony with this, Jesus, responding to a question by Thomas, said: "If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him," and, in answer to a question from Philip, Jesus added: "He that has seen me has seen the Father also." (Joh 14:5-9) Again, Jesus' following explanation shows that this was so because he faithfully represented his Father, spoke the Father's words, and did the Father's works. (Joh 14:10, 11; compare Joh 12:28, 44-49.) It was on this same occasion, the night of his death, that Jesus said to these very disciples: "The Father is greater than I am."-Joh 14:28.

The disciples 'seeing' the Father in Jesus can also be understood in the light of other Scriptural examples. Jacob, for instance, said to Esau: "I have seen your face as though seeing God's face in that you received me with pleasure." He said this because Esau's reaction had been in harmony with Jacob's prayer to God. (Ge 33:9-11; 32:9-12) After God's interrogation of Job out of a windstorm had clarified that man's understanding, Job said: "In hearsay I have heard about you, but now my own eye does see you." (Job 38:1; 42:5; see also Jg 13:21, 22.) The 'eyes of his heart' had been enlightened. (Compare Eph 1:18.) That Jesus' statement about seeing the Father was meant to be understood figuratively and not literally is evident from his own statement at John 6:45 as well as from the fact that John, long after Jesus' death, wrote: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him."-Joh 1:18; 1Jo 4:12.

What did Thomas mean when he said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God"?

On the occasion of Jesus' appearance to Thomas and the other apostles, which had removed Thomas' doubts of Jesus' resurrection, the now-convinced Thomas exclaimed to Jesus: "My Lord and my God! [literally, "The Lord of me and the God (ho The·os´) of me!"]." (Joh 20:24-29) Some scholars have viewed this expression as an exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but actually directed to God, his Father. However, others claim the original Greek requires that the words be viewed as being directed to Jesus. Even if this is so, the expression "My Lord and my God" would still have to harmonize with the rest of the inspired Scriptures. Since the record shows that Jesus had previously sent his disciples the message, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God," there is no reason for believing that Thomas thought Jesus was the Almighty God. (Joh 20:17) John himself, after recounting Thomas' encounter with the resurrected Jesus, says of this and similar accounts: "But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."-Joh 20:30, 31.

So, Thomas may have addressed Jesus as "my God" in the sense of Jesus' being "a god" though not the Almighty God, not "the only true God," to whom Thomas had often heard Jesus pray. (Joh 17:1-3) Or he may have addressed Jesus as "my God" in a way similar to expressions made by his forefathers, recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures, with which Thomas was familiar. On various occasions when individuals were visited or addressed by an angelic messenger of Jehovah, the individuals, or at times the Bible writer setting out the account, responded to or spoke of that angelic messenger as though he were Jehovah God. (Compare Ge 16:7-11, 13; 18:1-5, 22-33; 32:24-30; Jg 6:11-15; 13:20-22.) This was because the angelic messenger was acting for Jehovah as his representative, speaking in his name, perhaps using the first person singular pronoun, and even saying, "I am the true God." (Ge 31:11-13; Jg 2:1-5) Thomas may therefore have spoken to Jesus as "my God" in this sense, acknowledging or confessing Jesus as the representative and spokesman of the true God. Whatever the case, it is certain that Thomas' words do not contradict the clear statement he himself had heard Jesus make, namely, "The Father is greater than I am."-Joh 14:28.

JAH BLESS.
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Yeefon_Abena_Mawus
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2004, 05:11:52 AM »

Quote
Yeefon,

did you ever consider that it may have been Satan masquerading as an angel of light?  I do not say this to discount your experience by any means.  I heard voices once saying "It's okay to come home" and considered them very angelic, but later decided it was the voice of demons.  Why did I decide that?  Not because the voices weren't comforting, but because Jehovah has already given us all we need to communicate with him in the Bible and no longer is sending apparations to people to do such work.    

[at this point inconsiderate ones could call us both crazy, but that's their perrogative]

blessings


Really now Out_of_Zion

First I was a mere child.  For you to suggest that a child barely able to read (although I was blessed to be an early reader) was visited by satan as opposed to the Divine, deny a spiritual experience,  and direct me to a book full of  contradictions as the only source of communication to the Divine,  tells me that not only should I leave this conversation, but reserve posting and commenting to ideology, better suited for the title of this site.

You had to make a decision on something I already knew.  (whether or not something is demonic)  You made a decision based on a plaugerized/borrowed/inspired book that your experience was demonic - then there you have it....IT WAS.  Your books tell you of experiences that may be demonic to make sure and keep you away from the true practices of your ancestry.   My experience (and they are many) on the other hand, needs bear no consideration of whether they be demonic or not, for the God in me KNOWS from which voice I hear and listen.  That's elementary! - and NO book can give direction to the Spirit of God!    This is something better experienced for yourself, than my telling you.  One of the first things is to hear only one voice, not the voice of many as indicated by your post.  I've never heard voices....just the voice of the Divine - besides, ones must have a discerning spirit - that means - know without being told, eh?

Yeefon
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Oshun_Auset
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2004, 09:08:13 AM »

I see a contradiction here...

Out of Zion,

Why is Yeefon's "Jesus" experience questioned as being demonic by you but wciappetta's isn't? They were both X-tians at the time no? So why the difference in your judgement...
Is it because he was white....would a child know him as Jesus if he came in his true form, when the true form is not accepted by the masses? Does that mean your fellow X-tians that see a white Mary, Jesus, or Angels are really seeing demons? Or are they just delusional?  

wciappetta,

What does your Jesus look like? Do you have images of him around you? What are they? Do you think he supports the Zionist state of Isreal and the subsequent oppression of the Palestinian people just so prophecy can be fullfilled?  Did he suport the trans Atlantic slave trade so Africans could know him? What about European colinization of the rest of the world...Was all that "good" so we all prey to a false white Jesus now?

I agree that the spirit comes in many forms, forms that will be accepted by the individual that it is appearing to. These forms took many different appearances to different people of different cultures....Why are my ancestors(and me) dealing with demons when we are "posessed by the spirit" but X-tians aren't posessed by demons when they are having visions of a white man(that couldn't have been Jesus or Mary)?  Were my ancestors getting possesed by demons for the millenia they were never exposed to X-tianity and the Bible? What if the white man had never come to Africa...Would they have been still dealing with demons, or was  God simply coming to them in a different form? What about other cultures of people?

Since the ONLY way the Bible has been spread is through global imperialism, slavery, and colinization....Why would God spread his "word" like that? God isn't omnipotent enough to appear to people globally without man's evil interfearance? Why couldn't he/she/it have appeared in different ways to different people's at different times?  

Please answer these questions...
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Yeefon_Abena_Mawus
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2004, 09:47:43 AM »

Oshun_Auset

Oshun_Auset,  Oshun_Auset,Oshun_Auset, take the pitcher of water out of your hand and stop holding their mouths open Roll Eyes!

Yeefon

*had to add a li'l levity Wink
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2004, 02:51:01 PM »

I never did discount the possibility that wcia's experience wasn't also demonic.  

I will go into all that at a later time - visions, apparitions, and the modern day effect of all that twitching on the floor demonism it discusses in his testimony if you want.  Those "gifts of the spirit" don't come from Jah God - not anymore.  Let me know if you want me to support that with scripture and reason or if that's irrelevant to you.
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Yeefon_Abena_Mawus
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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2004, 05:57:32 PM »

Quote
I never did discount the possibility that wcia's experience wasn't also demonic.  

I will go into all that at a later time - visions, apparitions, and the modern day effect of all that twitching on the floor demonism it discusses in his testimony if you want.  Those "gifts of the spirit" don't come from Jah God - not anymore.  Let me know if you want me to support that with scripture and reason or if that's irrelevant to you.



Out-Of_Zion, you surprise me. According to you,  this Satan character seems to be a lot more active and powerful than Jah God .  I mean--it would appear he can get people to move unvoluntarily..butJah God can't?  Hmmm...and you,  I presume are God's spokesman on what he will and will not do anymore.  Don't bother tell me "it's his word that tells us that he no longer gives those gifts of the spirit"..cause in his word..he has seen fit to "change" his mind a time or two. Do you want support for that,  or is that irrevelant to you?

Are you suggesting that all of God's works are limited to the pages contained in 66 Books, recorded and covering such a limited space in time?  Wowwww....so glad my God is limitless, and My God has allowed me to be open enough to understand his/her limeted abilities and to accept so much of the things, I know not yet of their existence..  

Ahh..refreshing!
Ase  
Hotep

Yeefon
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2004, 06:20:13 PM »

Yes I, believe it.  Satan is not given enough credit for his antics and he is called the one "misleading the entire inhabited earth" in revelation 12:9.  He is not more powerful than Jehovah, but he is quite nearly as active, yes.  He has taken "1/3rd the stars (angels) of heaven" to engage in misleading the earth with him and is wildly successful!  Even among those professing to be Christians, he has many of them steeped in idolatry and pagan doctrines.  What a great victory for such a sick leader!

As for your god doing such great things for you, does he offer eternal life and redemption for your sins?  
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Yeefon_Abena_Mawus
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2004, 06:23:21 PM »

Greetings,

There are times that all of us should stand corrected.  Eh, I might include this as one of those times--for me.  While perusing another  section of this informative website - I recognized the fact that this forum pertains to Mainstream Religion.  Seeing as my interest is currently, "nominal at best", I should let this forum be a "peruse only" stop for me.

I remain open, in hopes someone, oneday will offer some new supporting evidence to obvious inconsistencies, and perhaps that's how I found myself here.  Nevertheless, I became too hasty and involved myself in what I already knew would be an excercise in futility.

So let it be...
Ase'
Yeefon Abena Gu Merkaba Mawusi
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2004, 06:42:42 PM »

Quite all right.  My interest to non Christian religions (or more accurately stated, "my reason for being HERE") is limited to Rastafari.

I came to this site, not seeking as much to learn of the African rituals, but to converse with Rastas and learn more of Rastafari.  However, upon coming here, I have found it so upbuilding to be associating with the intelligent brothers and sisters here that I often engage in other topics.

True Tho, this particular forum is for Mainstream religion - not that you are ignorant on that front.   Just keep the discussions respectful.  You notice I made it clear i was not trying to downspeak to you about your experience, I just honestly believe that the demons are very active agents in the spirituality of mankind and that a lot of seemingly divine experiences are the active hand of demonic angels.  Notice, angels....they're fallen angels, so their imitiation of the divine is very real, and they are indeed of a divine nature, having once occupied a post in the heavens.

Anyway, hopefully we can discuss more at another time.  I would love to hear of your experiences as a 7th day adventist, actually.

Jah bless
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Yeefon_Abena_Mawus
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2004, 10:12:56 PM »

Quote
.  I would love to hear of your experiences as a 7th day adventist, actually.

Jah bless


Not much time...will elaborate another time....I spent all of my childhood and most of my adult life in the Seventh Day Adventist Way...Very conservatively I might add...In other words..when I wasn't back slidden that was my practice.  I participated and led many of the activities both here and abroad.  I was a "literature Evangelist--thus my thorough knowledge of the Holy Bible - a Medical Missionary, both here and abroad, Sabbath school Teacher for children and adults, SS pianist for many years in one of the largest churches in Brookly NY - my family being one of the founding families of that church..and devout student and recipient of continual spiritual (non-demonic) enlightenment.

My thorough understanding of the Holy Bible including that of the Revelations..and obviously the Old Testament is obviously vast--that is if you know the SDA's--whom think they are the only ones going to heaven...like the Jehovah Witnesses (who came out from the SDA'S--although most of them don't know it when asked..but that's another story isn't it).

As I've always said, I am thankful for my SDA background...It is the very thing that made me search.  I say to most people..if you're gonna use the Bible as your only authority--you definitely should be SDA--

All religions to me are practices..my faith has NEVER waverd or changed--I've just become enlightened and transfrmed to another sphere.  Trust me..I know how hard it is to break the bonds...this was no casual experience..however it was an easy transition when I truly gave up and let Mawu ("God") continue to be my guide.

Be well

Yeefona Abena Gu merkaba Mawusi
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2004, 06:11:39 AM »

Being a Jehovah's Witness, that's news to me, that we came from the 7th day adventist church.  I'd be interested to see proof of that since all my knowledge says we began as a small movement of "bible students" in the late 1800s with C.T. Russell heading the group.  

Further, not all JWs believe only JWs will live - not into heaven - but into the new system of paradise earth (There is of course also a heavenly class composed of selected heavenly servants numbering 144,000 ; Rev 7 & 14).  Many, myself being one, believe any group that is doing the will of the Lord Jesus Christ and his Father Jehovah will receive salvation.  The problem with this to other?  I don't see any one else doing that will, namely preaching the TRUTH, to the entire globe.  Therefore, most are setting themselves up to be destroyed at Armageddon, not by not being a JW, but by not doing the will of God.

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Lastly, dont 7th Day Adventist follow the teachings of a woman "prophet" that lived in the 1800s and believe in a final rapture in which the earth will be burnt up and destroyed afterwards?  I read that somewhere, but I didn't hear it from a 7th Day Adventist so I took it with a grain of salt so to speak.
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Oshun_Auset
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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2004, 07:37:16 AM »

Geetings Yeefon_Abena_Mawus and Out of Zion,

Being the child of a Curch of a God and Christ/Methodist(raised) later adult convert to JW father, and a Catholic(raised) convert to 7th Day Adventist mother...of which both became agnostic(for lack of a better term). I would be very much interested in knowing the links between JW and the 7th day adventist church....and much like you Yeefon, I am thankful I spent a large time in SDA as a youth because it made me investigate everything.  I'm also glad I went to Catholic mass because it gave me the visual evidence that they plagerized Egyptian systems...but most of all I thank my parents who in later years brought me to all different houses of worship every Sunday/Saturday...Mosks, Buddist temples, Jewish temples, Hari Krishna temples, ect....They aloud me to see the similarities instead of the differences in differenct cultures approaches to the devine, and taught me to respect all.

I will also have to conceed to a self-criticism, this is the mainstream religius section....but I also feel people who proffess such mainstream religions should be open for questions from others, and should respond to them in full.
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Yeefon_Abena_Mawus
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Roots


« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2004, 07:49:15 AM »

Quote
Being a Jehovah's Witness, that's news to me, that we came from the 7th day adventist church.  I'd be interested to see proof of that since all my knowledge says we began as a small movement of "bible students" in the late 1800s with C.T. Russell heading the group.  

Further, not all JWs believe only JWs will live - not into heaven - but into the new system of paradise earth (There is of course also a heavenly class composed of selected heavenly servants numbering 144,000 ; Rev 7 & 14).  Many, myself being one, believe any group that is doing the will of the Lord Jesus Christ and his Father Jehovah will receive salvation.  The problem with this to other?  I don't see any one else doing that will, namely preaching the TRUTH, to the entire globe.  Therefore, most are setting themselves up to be destroyed at Armageddon, not by not being a JW, but by not doing the will of God.

--

Lastly, dont 7th Day Adventist follow the teachings of a woman "prophet" that lived in the 1800s and believe in a final rapture in which the earth will be burnt up and destroyed afterwards?  I read that somewhere, but I didn't hear it from a 7th Day Adventist so I took it with a grain of salt so to speak.


Out_Of_Zion

Thank you for the perfect opportunity to display organized religions manipulations, omissions and follies.  

This is information found on the web, however, in more detailed personal church history, we find that Miller, White and Russell, all were Seventh Day Adventist after the great disappointment, then Russell split yet again and founded the Witnesses (Political Power Play).   Many things were stricken from  church History—trust me,  or not—suit yourself.  Many things have mysteriously changed within the SDA church as well…as it becomes more mainstream.

As far as Ellen G. White..the prophetess you are referring to leading the SDA people.  NO..they don’t follow her, but let’s face it..she was just like every other white person who steals from African people.  Her visions, often plagiarized from an African Mans writings – (see Bakers “The Unknown Prophet, 1987).  The good things that came out of the movement, was the Kellogg empire, which was originally established for good healthful cereals, natural health sanitariums, and natural ways of life, of which the SDA’s used to feel paramount as being a clean vessel as the “temple of God”.  On a personal note, we see them veering into the path of more mainstream religion.  The SDA’s are second (or at least used to be) to the Catholics in  proslotyzying  across the world, with  their large publishing operation the Review & Herald, who publishes all of Ellen Whites plagiarized books and her health books and a myriad of other dogmatic mumbo jumbo that I used to sell with wholehearted intent.  They are a major disaster relief and missionary organization, going throughout the world with the Third Angels Message.  The ideas of going door to door are much the same as the JW’s, but they do it in a more organizaed fashion with Bible Lead Cards…if you’ve ever been in a Dr.’s office or other office and seen the card stand that asks you to send in for The Bible Story..it’s the SDA’s.  Good Books if that’s your flavor.  Excellent Health Series.  What can I say…I’ve found the WAY from which The way  came from…

Read the excerpt below.

THE APOCALYPSE AND THREE OF ITS LATER MOVEMENTS
Harold Bloom in his somewhat acerbic book, The American Religion (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992), discusses several "made-in-America" denominations. These denominations include Pentecostalists, Mormons, Adventists, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and a variety of New Age movements. It is important to note that all of these American sects have strong Apocalyptic expression and derive certain defining points of doctrine from the Book of Revelation. My purpose here is to review three "made-in-America" denominations and note their dependence upon the Book of Revelation. Specifically, I wish to provide a broad overview of Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the New Age religious fellowship known as the Church Universal and Triumphant. In each case, I will make reference to World Wide Web sites that provide a variety of links to each of these denominations.
Seventh Day Adventists
Both the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses arose in the wake of the Great Disappointment of 1843 (or, as revised, 1844). Briefly, William Miller, a premillennialist Baptist lay preacher had reckoned that in 1843, the world would experience the "cleansing of the sanctuary" identified in Daniel 8:14. This cleansing would usher in the 1000 year reign. When none of the predicted events occurred in 1843 (or 1844 for that matter), the Great Disappointment came to pass. A remarkably imaginative young woman named Ellen White began to have visions in the months following the Great Disappointment and these visions assumed the stature of "Testimonies." Collectively, they had the effect of galvanizing various sects of Adventists from around the country to form the Seventh Day Adventists.
K. R. Samples, "From Controversy to Crisis: An Updated Assessment of Seventh-Day Adventism," (Christian Research Journal 11 [1988]) has argued that on most points of doctrine, Seventh Day Adventists do not deviate appreciably from mainstream evangelical Christianity. He does identify three points of deviancy, however. The first is Sabbatarianism which holds that faithful observance of the Sabbath (in this instance, Saturday) is morally absolute. Indeed, more extreme Adventists will argue that keeping the Sabbath will procure salvation. The Sabbath is viewed as a sign of God's covenant between Himself and His people. It is to be a "day of delightful communion with God." Those who do not hold the Sabbath, as well as the other commandments of God, have the mark of the beast mentioned in Revelation 14:9-12. The second point of deviancy from mainstream evangelical Christianity is the authority of Ellen White and her voluminous writings. It does seem clear that Adventists view her visions and testimonies to be the product of a well-formed gift of prophecy. However, they do not equate her writings with the canonical Scriptures. The third and most convoluted point of deviancy has been referred to as the Sanctuary Doctrine or the Doctrine of Investigative Judgment. In essence, this doctrine surfaced as a reinterpretation of Miller's Great Disappointment. Two Adventists, Hiram Edson and O.R.L. Crosier, concluded that the date (1843 or 1844) was accurate but the event - Jesus' return to earth - was incorrect. Rather, Edson and Crosier argued that in 1844 Jesus entered not the earthly sanctuary but a second compartment of the heavenly sanctuary. Up until 1844, Jesus had been purchasing salvation by his death upon the cross. However, after his entry into the second compartment, he began to examine the lives of those who had received forgiveness. Only those who passed this second judgment would be assured of translation at the moment of his second coming.
Throughout their history, Seventh Day Adventists have developed a strong reliance on the "prophecies" of the Bible as predictive of the course of history. An interesting contemporary expression of this attitude may be found in a set of explanations for certain symbols in the Book of Revelation. A Web site maintained by Eric Martin presents the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in a rather unique way. The first horse is false religion which occasions the three other horses representing war, famine, and pestilence. Another Martin site identifies the seven churches of Revelation (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea) as symbols of sequential eras or time periods from the beginning of Christ's ministry to the end of time. It is important to note that the last period (Laodicea) began in 1844 and we are now nearing the end.
Jehovah's Witnesses
Charles Taze Russell was the found of the Jehovah's Witnesses. After abandoning his Presbyterian/Congregational upbringing, he found resonance with early 19th Century Adventists. However, eventually he broke with the Adventists over their view that the second coming would be in the flesh rather than in the spirit (Bloom, 1992). The Witnesses believe in an all-powerful God - Jehovah - whose principal agenda is an imminent victory over Satan in the Battle of Armageddon. For the witnesses, the end-time has already come since the six thousand years of human existence ended in 1975. We are, then, in a brief period before the second coming. Arguably, the Witnesses are the most extreme of all millenarian denominations. According to Bloom (1992):
What makes the Jehovah's Witnesses different is not their expectation of destruction, but their violent hatred of what will be destroyed, which is to say: our country, our world, our common planet....There are no positive elements in existence that the Witnesses seek to salvage; they wish to see all of us vanish, and as quickly as possible (p. 162).
Witnesses study the Book of Revelation incessantly. Perhaps the most widely known reference is Revelation 7:4-8 (and 14:1-3) which places the number of redeemed at 144,000, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Russell identified his early followers as the nucleus of the 144,000 who would serve Christ directly in the millennium. Most of the rest of us - the "great multitude" - will enjoy a less glorious future. There is also an obsession with the end of the world which will be ushered in by the battle of Armageddon (Rev 16:14-16) in which God will triumph over the very real and abominably wicked spirit being called Satan who malevolently influences the world. However, God will be victorious and destroy the present system of things. The ungodly will be wiped out.

http://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/royaltyr/apocmvmnts.htm
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