Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

This article I found while roaming around on the net in the news sector and wonders what is everyone intake on this both males and females.

Is this all of a woman worth?

In Somalia, a hospital in the capital Mogadishu was forced to shut for five weeks following threats to a doctor who removed a woman's womb.

Dr Bashir Sheikh said the operation had saved Mrs Fatuma Abdulle's life because she was carrying a dead foetus.

Fatuma's family sent gunmen to the SOS hospital, saying she was as good as dead, without a womb.

The family demanded 50 camels from the doctor - the traditional Somali compensation offered for the death of a woman.

Is a woman only worth the children she bears?

To what extent would you go - as a man or a woman - to get a baby?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3774827.stm

Greetings,
Poetic,
I am sure that a lot of men will not even touch on this subject, as many (not all) of them would not even think of devoting themsleves to a woman who could not bear them children.  Well, not without a woman on the side who could bear them at least one child (preferably a male).  Even in Ras tradition woman is written as "womban" so if you take the womb out what are you left with? Less than a person.
As of now I guess I am worth nothing then because I have no children.
Misgana!

Greetings,
a new day and a new point of view to add.  WOMBAn is also spelled WOMBMAN, so I guess if you take away the womb, you have either less than a person (womban - womb = an), or a man (wombman - womb = man).  Either way, I guess we would not be needed or desired without our womb.
Hmmmmm,
so sad that some whould feel this way
MISGANA anyhow!

Blessings Empress

All women are worth alot,but in somalia this doesn't seem to be the case as in this article, because honestly a king cannot be fully happy without a queen at his side and sistren there are some kings out there who are understanding to empresses who cannot bring forth youts. You are worth much more than you think empress you shouldn't think you worth nothing cause you have no kids as yet, You are worthy and priceless sistren remeber that.

Blessings and hotep

Greetings Poetic,
I am smiling at your reply!  Blessed love unto you!  However, I was just being sarcastic when I said that about my worth, for I do not define my worth or my self by man's standards but by that of the ALMIGHTY only.  And I am also well aware of the many kings who do accept Empressess and Lionesses that cannot bring forth their seeds.  Blessings be unto them as well, fo rthier wisdoma nd compassion!  I guess the purpose of my post was to signifiy that almost in all walks of life
(even so in the spirituality of some Rases who to me should be tradding as examples for humanity to follow) men are still thinking of women as their "baby making a machines" .  Unfortunetly, in places such as Somalia, even Ethiopia, and the Middle East, it is a rule of thumb, where dishonor is not only brought to the woman who cannot bare children, but to her whole family and her ancestors.  I don't quite understand it myself, but MISGANA fo rthe Kings who hold us Lionesses higher than that

sorry for the mix-up

Peace. The worth of a woman should not be determined by her ability to bear children. Her worth is immeasurable. Poetic Princess said there are some kings who are very understanding of empresses who can not bring forth youth, or have yet to have children. I do believe there is nothing wrong with severing a relationship when the parties involved have different views on child rearing if it will cause extreme conflict. If one party wants to have kids and the other doesn't, how can they compromise?

Blessings Empress,it is ok about the mix up, Much blessings on to you, I honestly dont understand why women are labelled such"baby making machines" by some men, i wonder what gives them the idea and right to belive that is all we are worthy off in their eyes.
To answer your question preach honestly both parties need to sit down and come to one agreement on their choice on having youts or not, and both parties should be happy and overjoyed at the end of their decision making what ever they choice maybe, but each party must let each other know how they feel deeply on having kids or not having kids,because if you dont one of you would always be disappointed when this issue comes around from time to time, remember 2 people are in the relationship and you both must voice your own innerfeelings and emotions regarding this matter.

Much Blessings and hotep

These poor people are looking after their own interests not the woman’s, poverty make people do the sickest things. In the Islamic culture the woman is not even allowed to speak when men are around, so it would be normal for this kind of barbaric reactions. A woman only looses her ability to give birth because of the western ways of living. So if she can’t give birth because of the medicines and the things that we eat and or put into our selves from the westerners. I would suggest she tries afrikan herbal medicine.

Greetings,
I agree with the herbal thing jemba, but I do no think that western way of living is the only thing that would cause a woman to not bear children.  Since the days of old some women were not able to conceive and to me it is te ALMIGHTY's ultimate choice.  No matter how bad one woman may want to conceive, if HE does not want her to, if that is not in HIS plans or purpose for her (or if it is punishment for sin), then she will not bear children.

And I think that their should be no relationship to sever if the couple have different desires regarding children.  That is, communication should be key in a relationship from the beginning, and if you are not into idle relationships, then this matter should be disgusted early on enough so that if the two people find that they have different desires regardign children, then they should be able to depart in peace and with blessings!!  However, don;t tell me you love me, but then want to leave if I cannot give you a child that you so deeply desire!  Then you did not love me to begin with because part of me is that I cannot or do not want to have children.  What you loved was the woman you thought I could be to you --- not the real one.  Also, according to the characteristics of love given in the WORD, it is not conditional.
MISGANA!

Love from what point of view???
You are right some women don’t give birth because it was desired by nature, that they could not. If you believe in reincarnation, then you would obviously be against abortion? Many women have to bear that pain to understand what they did in the past with their potential to create a spirit was not natural, but as soon as they understand why they can’t give birth, mother earth who is a mother herself. Can always change things around and a woman is more in tune with the earth then man are. Most of the woman in the old days knew this, so they would go to the high priest or medicine man and he or she would explain to them why. Nothing is impossible for human beings in this realm we suppose to be god’s highest form of creation. But we just sank from gods to human to man then to beasts, know we want to become machines.

Greetings,
jemba you ask love from what point of view.  Ok, I just cannot see how a man that I have chosen to share my life with him and him with I, can say that he loves me; but as soon as I cannot have children, him up and leave. ???????  And after he leaves for that, am I supposed to still believe that he loves me?  I guess I would if I beak down the word believe into
be-lie-ve.
MISGANA!

So what if your man asked you for permission to take a second wife or junior mum, as they call second wife’s in our tradition.

Greetings,
I must say that you have caught my attentionon a number of topics jemba.  I am smiling as I type because I should be getting ready to go to class, but am sitting here typing on this forum.   [smiley=anxious.gif]
Anyhow, I am also smiling because even though I am well aware that some cultures do take more than one wife (and there are afew that even take more than one husband) and all I can say is that honestly and truly, I would not do well in that culture.  If he did ask me that, I would look at him sideways (like he has lost his mind), then ask if I could take a second husband.   [smiley=cheesy.gif] [smiley=beam.gif]
I try to be as open minded as possible, but I can admit that I am not that open minded.  Ok seriously now, I woould not like it and since I would be unhappy, it would be best for me not to be in the situation.

MISGANA!

Then that is the kind of love you are speaking about. You see the word love from a European point of view.

Greetings,
jemba, so I cannot have a second husband then???  [smiley=disappointed.gif]

In all seriousness, I do  not think that I see it from a European point of view, just from a spiritual point of view.  I believe that one man, joined with one woman, through the Almighty.  Thus, as I believe HIM to be a triune being (Father Son, and Spirit), we are also elivated to that status...just one of the step we take to being godlike.  The foundations of the Bible ( my sacred text) did not begin with the Jews, Christianity, or European's interpretation of it.... so if my definition or guidliness for defining the characteristics of love are from it, then they are not European but from whom I believe to be the ULTIMATE DIVINE.
Like I said before, I respect other cultures and beliefs, but their practices may not be for me.  Now, if I was part of your culture then I would view things as you do, but I am not of it.... so I have to go the road that the DIVINE has chosen for me.  It is not what you refer to as European because from what I know and have observed, "European love" (if there is really such a thing..... I am asuming you mean love how generalized western society sees it) is built on lust, lies, and manipulation.  I despise those ways!
And getting back to the topic at hand, it is not a western, eastern, or African thing; women have been and continue to be oppressed and subjected to cruelty in all walks of life.....in the name of YAH (or the powers that be) and even in the name of "love".  No one can tell me that such an act as mutilating my genitalia will please the Almighty (who made that area a part of me in the first place) so it must be done etc...  A bit more graphic than I wanted to go, but it is a good example.  I am not afraid to speak out that the badness goes on all around us and no man can tell me different, because I am a woman, and I have both experienced the bad treatment and have heard the stories and cries of my sistren whom hail from across the globe of all faiths, races, and creeds.
MISGANA!

HOTEP SISTER

In afrika it would be nearly impossible to find a man who is in a monogamous relationship. Even I am a son with many brothers and sisters and I don’t call them half brothers and sister. You can ask anyone from the kongos or from any other afrikan country if they father has another wife or child inside not outside the family, like Europeans would say. I don’t expect everyone to understand this, because of what the Europeans tell us marriage is about, the interest of only two people and their house and their children. In Africa it was more of a social living, marriage was to build the society and help the community to flourish. Mother and father where not the only ones who took care of the children. It was more like your son or daughter is ours, not yours and the whole community or society will be strict with the child when they need to be and they will love that child as much as the father and mother dose. A women is who we trace our lineage from nether the father. Marriage was never about the interests of two individual, that’s why you could send you son or daughter to school and they would be taught with as much love and discipline their own mother or father would. The father really never took much participation in the child’s, only until the child reached a certain cage, then the father, mother and the community would be involved with educating the child. Until the European came in with their selfish back stubbing ways, they made as practice monogamy, change our heritage by giving as Christian names and erasing over millions of years of heritage. Know if a black woman has a relationship with a black man and that man has children from his previous relationship she won’t even let them in the house. Go into the scriptures and tell me how many man not woman, who had more then one wife? We taught the jews or Hebrews this way of life, we also taught them how to bury their dead how to brush their teeth and how to bath.  

Greetings,
jemba, I understand why many Afrikan countries operate the way that they do with the community raising the child and everyone living in peace and love.  I actually do admire their sense of community, but I must say that you sound very bitter towards the rest of the world (namely Europeans).  Forgive me if I am wrong.......it is just that I have come to a point in my spiritual walk where I feel it my duty and my desire to trod in love... no matter how hard at times it may be or what or who comes against me.
And I also am aware that many men in the scriptures did have multiple wives...but I do not live my life based on their ways, rather based on how YAH leads me.  
Question?  What are your views on a wife having more than one husband?  Is it acceptable?  Why or why not?
MISGANA!  and Bless jemba for you keep things on this forum interesting

ps jemba, can you really speak for all of Afrika as you do in your above post?
Bless once more!

HOTEP SISTER

There is no bitterness in me at all and I don’t have any bitterness towards Europeans which includes America. What is done is done, but if they wanted to conquer afrika and enslave Nubians tomorrow, they could do it ten thousand times and over, and who knows if they will or not?

If you know any brothers or sisters from afrika you can ask them if they are from a monogamist family.

The genealogy of a generation is traced from the woman.

Bless sister

Greetings,
jemba....I stand corrected on the topic of your bitterness then........But also what you say is true, if they wanted to enslave our people again then they very well do have the power; but why do it when they already have control over and have milked the valuable lands (that they know of or that they see as valuable for all of Mamma Earth is valuable)..... plus they are so much involved with the diseases and evils that are going on in Afrika that they do not need to out right invade and enslave.......
Oh and I am friends with many Afrikans, and most of them do come from monogamous families.  Most are from West Afrika but even a few hail from East and North Afrika....ie Sudan, Kemit, Ethiopia, Tanzania....  I have only met a few that do not.
Bless and MISGANA!

Greetings,
Have all of deh I dem heard about the manhunt in Atlanta, Georgia, USA?  
Well, if you have been following it then you know that the suspect is a black male, 33 years old who has escaped from the courthouse.  He shot the judge and some other guards and now is out there somehwere.  He allegedly raped his ex-girlfriend. That is the basic rundown and there are a lot of questions that can be asked with regards to how the police are handling the situation.  But I will restrict myself to only bring up one question that is in line with the initial post's topic.  Ok, the head judge that he shot an killed is being promoted by the media to be a fair and just judge and "friend".  They claim that under him, the suspect would have gotten a fair trial.  Ok, if he is soooooo fair, then how come when he once had a young woman (black; mother of seven children) in his courtroom who pled guilty for beating her newborn baby to death, this same "fair" judge let her go without prison or jail time under one condition.......unnu read for this one??!!!!  The condition was that she be sterilized!!!!!!  I have nothing more to say about it right now because I am so angry, [smiley=veryangry.gif] and I don't want to curse or to type anything out of line or character.
MISGANA!

Don’t you think some females don’t even deserve to have that ability to give birth Empress_Zauditu_Ariel-YAH

Having read the article, I think there maybe many sides or perspectives missing from it. I think maybe ones need also to see this from a traditional Afrikan perspective. If this society was traditional agrarian-based one (which was not specified in the article) then indeed I could see how the female’s family would have seen her ‘as good as dead’ if she could not bear children. I am not saying that they were completely right, however in traditional societies children are wealth, labour, social security, health insurance and workforce all in one, not just little playthings or loved ones. Children continue building the village and are indeed the basis of the wealth of the family and village.

In a Western context we can say that they undervalue the female because of her inability to bear children, as they are not seeing the whole person or her worth other than as a ‘baby machine’. But in many ways this is because in western ‘modern’ culture work, wealth and survival are not seen as being dependent on children. We see in industrial and technology based ‘wealthy’ countries the focus for many years was on reducing the rate of childbirth and the high birth rates in so-called developing countries was seen as a liability to development and wealth. So in many ways it is a matter of not just culture but modes of production. A female who cannot bear, in a tradition society, may be a liability to her family as it may be harder for her to find a mate as a male will want children to carry on the family legacy and build the wealth and longevity of his compound and the female’s compound as well.

Anyway this is just another perspective I am adding. I see others added similar perspectives in the comments section under the article. I am not saying that I am in agreement or that I think that ALL traditional societies saw the role of females as only one of physical childbirth. Some certainly did see the regenerative and creative element of the female principle to be more expansive then that. It is always good however to analyze the different cultural perspectives of the information especially when the news source is a European one and such a highly biased one as the BBC.

Yan

Greetings,
I Empress am truly disturbed by what I am reading here.  I really do not know who to respond to first.  Indeed I intitially made up my mind not to respond at all, but my conscience would not let me for some impressionable young woman seeking to find herself or her place in this world may come across this discussion and actually believe what is being written here.
Since order is already established and should be maintained in the forum, I will respond to jemba first.  Ummmmm Do I think that some women should not have the right to bear children.  First of all, that is not the point to the post I wrote!  The point is that some white judge made the decision to wave the "exceptable" means of punishment for her crime ( acceptable by their own society, and since their judicial system is of that society then it should be held in some esteem) anyway he waved that punishment to say that "oh well as long as you agree to be steralized then you can go free"  Forget the fact that you killed an innocent life, it was worth nothing, as long as you bring forth no more into this world.  You and your other six children can just go about tyour business, I don't care.  Forget also the point that the woman may be faced with life's stressors of poverty and everything else, and that she may also suffer from a mental illness.....the judge basically dismissed al of that and just thought that the ase would be best solved if she goes and gets "fixed" like she is some common dog that has no sense of how to keep her legs closed and thus is over populating the earth with subsequent dilenquent dogs.  However, I will answer your question, it is not up to me, nor you, nor any man or woman to decide who should and should not be "blessed" or priveledged enough to have children.
Now on to YAN.  Ok I see the line of you reasoning but in addition to what I have typed in response to jemba's post, there is an additional factor that you did not address.  If this Afrikan society is going to see their children as a means of production, then that society is in a sad state to have to depend upon the children for such purposes.  Therefore, chances are, as in many Afrikan societies that have been robbed of their prime members and citizens due to slavery and colonialization, chances are that the society is poverty stricken to some degree and are not solving the problem by having children be cause the children are not being adequately educated, nourished, or given proper health care to ensure the production and progression of that society through the generations.  Simply having a certain quota ( number) of children for the future generation is not enough if you cannot or do not provide the basic building blocks for them.  Jemba you should appreciate that since you  stated that you believe that we have to act within the western (European) ways of life in order to elivate ourselves.  That means, tribal communities cannot advance without education and proper health care at the very least.  Furhtermore, I just came from a post slavery perspective of having to replenish Mamma Afrikan of her vital human resources and wealth, however, it cannot be ignored that this view of women did not come about as aresult of slavery.  That is to say that, they were not seen as being valuable based upon the number of children (specificically male children) only after slavery, but have been seen that way even when societies thought themsleves to be the richest on Earth.  For these societies, the slavery debate would be void.  I do not care who says it, I am worth more than just the amount of children I can give.  Men talk all the time abou thow important it is for a whole village to raise a child, well guess what, even I could bear none, I am worth mor ethan being a burden to the family or worth more than being dead because there is some woman out there who has too many children to bring up....and, as part of the village, I could be of help to her.  Or there is some woman who may be too sick to care for her child at the moment, that I could help, or educate, or there is some child's life out there that I could make a positive impact on, who maybe otherwise could not have gotten.  So, therefore, without opening my legs to bring forth a child for my husband (who I do believe has selfish reasons for taking pride in having a seed , who is once again preferably a male)  I have added to the production and advancement of my people and village.
MISGANA and BLESS!

Hotep sister

Nobody should be able to decide if a woman can give birth or not but nature.
A man will always give birth no matter what the circumstances because that is what he is told to do before coming to earth. A woman is just more than how many children she can give birth to because she is a teacher and mother of nations, that is why the black race is poor, the first education the spirit gets is in the womb you are what you eat spiritually and physically and the second education is outside of the womb which is also the responsibility of the mother today. Everybody listens to their mother more then their father.