Dialogue on Colorism - Part 2
Taken verbatim from: Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum
Dialogue on Colorism - Part 1
Bantu_Kelani
Sep 16th, 2004, 3:16am
on Sep 15th, 2004, 6:11pm, Oshun_Auset wrote:
"I personally would feel compelled to argue against it, even though I am not dark skinned, because it is simply not true. The majority of dark skinned African/Blacks are on the continent. So how could they not care about their home?"
Facts: Millions black people in the Motherland are not educated to understand the current injustices done to our homeland incited by common enemies (white & Arab population). The majority of the black African population which is poor, still has to deal with and endure a lot of pain, from economical and political pressures to slavery and modern day severe brainwashing. The product is black African groups in Africa castigating, discriminating and disregarding their African civilizations, but they are kissing their invaders behind. You know this.
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Ayinde
Sep 16th, 2004, 1:49pm
Oshun_Auset,
I said this: "If someone says that dark-skinned Blacks do not care about Africa, then that is a generalization that also applies to I. I do not feel any desire to argue about that. I do not feel a need to show that I am an exception."
Your response was:
"I personally would feel compelled to argue against it, even though I am not dark skinned, because it is simply not true. The majority of dark skinned African/Blacks are on the continent. So how could they not care about their home?"
Please present your argument against it before I respond further.
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preach
Sep 17th, 2004, 2:15am
There appears to be a sweeping generalization about light skinned blacks when this subject is addressed. Is it a sweeping generalization to assert that dark skinned blacks have serious complexes about their skin that makes them attack light skinned people out of self hate or jealousy? It is difficult for either party mentioned to recognize exceptions. Perhaps a step forward would be for both parties to admit their prejudices and shortcomings. Perhaps some ideals, problems , biases, etc., are deeply psychologically rooted or self induced. Some may argue that this is a given. True, but only in theory. I challenge anyone who personally has a problem with someone of a different complexion to openly express themselves.
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Bantu_Kelani
Sep 17th, 2004, 5:19am
The narrow-minded approach you forward is certainly shameful preach. Millions of millions African blacks have negatives attitude towards their ancestral traditions, customs and civilizations in the world! So, what's wrong with being general about it in this discussion? Should we have this discussion as a whole, or use personal uncharacteristic illustrations? Do you like using marginal illustrations for broader context discussions preach? I guess so.
Moreover, you have the audacity to tell people to confess their racial/color bigotry here. I suppose you have the guts to show your picture in public like Oshun Auset? I judge you to be mixed race light-skinned yourself. Prove me wrong can you be honest yourself?
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Oshun_Auset
Sep 17th, 2004, 11:33am
on Sep 16th, 2004, 3:16am, Bantu_Kelani wrote:
"Facts: Millions black people in the Motherland are not educated to understand the current injustices done to our homeland incited by common enemies (white & Arab population). The majority of the black African population which is poor, still has to deal with and endure a lot of pain, from economical and political pressures to slavery and modern day severe brainwashing. The product is black African groups in Africa castigating, discriminating and disregarding their African civilizations, but they are kissing their invaders behind. You know this."
Yes, you are correct. But that doesn't mean they don't care about their home/environment. Even the westernized continental Africans I have had contact with still care about home...Keeping abreast of current events ect. Now their "caring" is not on the level of someone who is conscious of course, but it is their home and they care. They may be going about everything the westernized(wrong) way...Many people on the continent(and the diaspora) are in survival mode because of the economic conditions...it's hard for them to put effort into other things...like organizing...when you have to worry about the basics being met... IMO a lot of the glorification of the west by continental Africans comes from the economic situation. Almost everyone I have asked...from the continent that now lives here, and on the continent itself when I visited, love their home...and if the economic situation was different...wouldn't be trying to come, or wouldn't have came to the West....Of course as far as loving culture and African spirituality...they are lacking love of these things for the same reasons we all are lacking love of these things globally. Which you covered in your post...So I wouldn't say darker ones suffer from not caring about Africa anymore than any other shade...We all have been trained to not care about mamma Africa...
In comment on the direction of the rest of this thread...
Preach...I doubt very highly any dark skinned Blacks are jealous of light skinned Blacks, on this site especially!Come on now, the people you are takling to are conscious and love themselves! I actually can't believe you just said that!...That is insinuating that you are thinking there is something to be jealous of...Which there is not. Unless of course you think light skin is "better"??? Talk and beliefs like this from light skinned Blacks is the problem! Thanks for taking this conversation about 10 steps backwards! Unfortunately, your comment is a good example of the colourism this article is referring to. Generalizing is necessary when their is general behavior coming from a particular classification of people...If it is a group phenomenon it has to be dealt with that way. I have no argument with that. AN infact encourage it to deal with ourselves in a communal rather than individualistic way.
Ayinde,
My main beef is that you came off as rude by saying stuff like "this means nothing to me" The entire tone of your post(that was in direct criticism of my post) was very angered and negative. (not that all of us shouldn't be angered by colourism, especially those greatest affected by it) I know you say that nobody can't prove "exceptions to the rule" with words...but that is all we have on the internet. I'm not trying to prove that anyhow, I gave up on that when I said I did on another thread...But I must state my observations...Prior to me revealing I was light I never recieved such negative assumptions about my motives or negative reactions to anything I posted...Even on threads dealing with dark/light issues. I can't help but notice that things have changed and I find that odd yet understandable to some degree. You may have reacted with the same tone in your posts without the disclosure of my appearance...or if anyone else posted the same comments, but people that look like me are part of the colourism problem(of course)...So since I am honestly trying to discuss and battle such things...I would appreciate if my year+ posting behavior on this site would also be taken into consideration when evaluating my motives for posting something...anything actually. I don't like the tension that has developped between you and I. I think it should be discussed.
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Ayinde
Sep 17th, 2004, 2:37pm
Your response does not invalidate the generalized view from more informed Blacks, that Blacks in general do not care about Africa. Even the term 'care' carries different meanings to different people. But I do know what another more informed dark-skinned Black means when they make such a statement, and in that regard I find it is true. Explaining the reasons Africans may not 'care' about Africa does not make the statement about them not caring untrue. I deliberately used dark-skinned Black to make the generalization specifically applicable to I, to further develop the argument that the defensiveness is not necessary especially if a generalization is true.
With regard to your more personal response at the end of this post, When 'some privileged ones' are challenged they often use terms like rude, angry and negative to describe the responses of ones who do not accept what they say and do. They often feel they are the best judges on these things. They usually feel that all discussions should be done in a way to promote them at the expense of the real victims. So of course from your position, I can be considered rude for not accepting your word that you are an exception to the rule.
Whites and light-skinned ones really cannot set the terms and conditions for any discussion that involves issues that negatively impact on dark-skinned Blacks the most. It is either they choose to get involved in these debates or not. I don't think it is my place to placate anyone.
Also, this reference to your yearlong history posting on this board makes no sense to me. I see other Whites and Light-skined ones who have been around these boards for years posting fair pro-African comments, and I am still convinced that they are operating from a position of undeserved privileges and light-skin arrogance. That doesn't make them evil, and it does not invalidate all that they post. But in my view, they still just do not get it.
Oshun_Auset said: "I don't like the tension that has developed between you and I. I think it should be discussed."
Some may get some weird impressions from this comment. Anyhow, you are quite entitled to interpret anything any way you feel. I am not responding to you any differently from how I would respond to any other White or light-skinned ones who choose to engage these matters.
Beyond your idea of tensions between you and I, I feel that Colorism is the source of real tension between light-skinned and dark-skinned Blacks, and Colorism should be discussed. This is not personal to just you and I.
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Oshun_Auset
Sep 17th, 2004, 3:02pm
I didn't see your entire post as negative....mainly the phrase I pointed out "this means nothing to me"...Please don't placate me, I don't need it. But "nothing" is a very dissmissive term for anyone to use about what anything anyone says/posts IMHO.
So do you think light skinned African/Black people suffer greater or any oppression(not meaning the exploitation everyone gets including European/Whites) in comparrison with European/Wites under this system? The reason I ask is because light skinned/whites seem to being put into the same category with no variation like their experience under the system is the same...which is interesting to me because society(this system) categorizes Africans/Blacks together although it designates different levels of oppresseive treatment to different skin tones within that grouping. Is the light skinned Black experience completely removed from the dark Black/African experience in your view?....Also, In your experience have you ever known or witnessed anyone that is an "acception to the rule" of any of the generalizatios made on this thread about dark and light African peoples?
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Ayinde
Sep 17th, 2004, 3:24pm
on Sep 17th, 2004, 3:02pm, Oshun_Auset wrote:
"I didn't see your entire post as negative....mainly the phrase I pointed out "this means nothing to me"...Please don't placate me, I don't need it. But "nothing" is a very dissmissive term for anyone to use about what anything anyone says/posts IMHO.
So do you think light skinned African/Black people suffer greater oppression(not meaning the exploitation everyone gets including European/Whites) in comparrison with European/Wites under this system? In your experience have you ever known or witnessed anyone that is an acception to the rule of any of the generalizatios made on this thread about dark and light African peoples?"
Well if a statement is used repeatedly like "Africans should organize", and the people who are making it are not spelling out the nature of this organization in a way that really addresses the problem, then I find the statement to be meaningless when it comes from them.
I am also sufficiently aware of European history to make the argument that some White Jews and other European groups were oppressed. Of course, you know I do not mean the long span of oppression like what dark-skinned Africans continually suffer. I know mixed-race, light-skinned ones are also oppressed, and in a general context it is not the same as what is experienced by dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans.
I am dealing with Colourism in its general context, and I am not specifically looking for exceptions to the general conduct. To prove that someone is an exception to what I know to be generally true, I would have to personally know the individual. In absence of that, in my view, the generalization stands.
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Bantu_Kelani
Sep 17th, 2004, 3:55pm
Oshun Auset, the black Africans that come form the CONTINENT you know (including me) are not the typical African people whom have a great sense of disconnection to Africa because of media and scholarly propaganda about our history and traditions. You said it yourself, the native Africans form your political party are programmed with a revolutionary Pan-African ideology, and those people are not the ones absorbed into the western mindset to fall victims or to easily harbor self-hatred of their blackness, which makes it easier to castigate and disregard their African civilizations, murder and exploit their own brothers. These are heart-wrenching statements for me to say. But, this is reality. I can't ignore these facts in the broader context. So to be right on target, we should have a face-off with reality.
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preach
Sep 18th, 2004, 12:24am
I was involved in a group that did improvisational performances and the theme of one show was stereotypes. Everyone involved were of different ethnicities, races, etc.. During our first rehearsal the floor was open for anyone who wanted to share stereotypes they personally believed or had heard. We all considered ourselves friends and some of the comments were hurtful but the ultimate good was the floor was open for discussion, and through the pain we learned alot about each other and had a successful show. This may sound idealistic but it did serve a purpose. Again I openly challenge anyone who personally has a problem with someone of a different complexion to express themselves. Hypothetically, maybe Ayinde being dark skinned is jealous of the light skinned africaspeaks members; or maybe someone of mixed race secretly would like to be darker. Who knows?
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Bantu_Kelani
Sep 19th, 2004, 12:59am
on Sep 18th, 2004, 12:24am, preach wrote:
"Hypothetically, maybe Ayinde being dark skinned is jealous of the light skinned africaspeaks members."
Your haste to pretend you know Ayinde is pitifully stupid. Frankly, your push to lay blame on Ayinde or any dark-skinned one is a convenient tactic. For you it's an emotional escapism as a defense mechanism. I can see you neither have the ability to grasp the obvious nor the audacity to be honest yourself. And we are supposed to debate you? Sure, right!
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preach
Sep 19th, 2004, 3:12am
B.K. you hastily assumed that I was of mixed race and light complected earlier in one of your responses. You hastily made a comment in your attempts to challenge me. Perhaps you should keep a dictionary handy because hypothetical means supposed but not necessarily real or true. Sometimes creating scenarios is useful when attacking a problem. I could replace Ayinde with any name, would you feel more comfortable if I would've said bartholomew. If you are really trying to debate beloved maybe you should refer back to my previous post and tell me why my suggestion will not work. Also what would you like me to be honest about.
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Ayinde
Sep 19th, 2004, 12:25pm
I have not seen where any of my posts here can be viewed as coming from jealousy. I think if you are bringing that up you should spell out your own argument. It appears your hypothesis was meant to solicit a reactionary response to simply match wit, rather than to seriously engage the debate. Using my name although you said you could have easily used any name, meant that was a calculated attack that was meant to solicit a defensive reaction.
You have not really shared any serious views on the subject. I think it is better you give your views and ideas on the issue, if you have any, instead of stalking the board and trying to antagonize others.
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preach
Sep 19th, 2004, 8:14pm
Yall some conspiracy brothers and sisters. In one of my earlier posts I gave a personal account of how my former group and I handled a situation. I did this instead of singing to the choir.
There are several isms; class -ism, sexism, racism, age-ism, and the ism we are addressing, colorism. What differenciates the latter is the fact that the ism occurs amongst a group of peers. Sexism is male verses female, racism is one race verses another race, classism is the proletariat verses the bourgeoise, and ageism is the young verses the old. Colorism in this case is black verses black. Besides the obvious discrepancies the problem is that the original protagonists are let off the hook and now trouble is stirred in house. In other words the focus is shift and in a situation where we should be working together we are now seperate. The religious folks say that the devil is busy. I say a job well done further seperation of the masses. Then a new phenomenon is create, colorist - people who have resentment, or in extremities become jealous of brethren of a different shade. Jealousy here means fiercely protective of ones own ideas, feelings or views to a point where others feelings, ideas or views are disregarded all for the sake of protecting the union: sound familiar. We who consider ouselves brethren should be more compassionate and remember that both the light and dark skinned have suffered. Believe it or not we are our worst enemies.
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Tyehimba
Sep 21st, 2004, 11:15am
"Besides the obvious discrepancies the problem is that the original protagonists are let off the hook and now trouble is stirred in house. In other words the focus is shift and in a situation where we should be working together we are now seperate. The religious folks say that the devil is busy. I say a job well done further separation of the masses."
You sound like one of those defensive Whites who argue that racism should not be discussed or dealt with because 'it is dividing the human race'. Colorism is not 'letting the original protaganists off the hook' as you say becuause it is intimately tied to the dynamics of racism. It is a situation where Blacks themselves has internalized bogus ideas/racism and applied it to their interactions with fellow Blacks. Light/brown skinned African are particularly guilty of this, and it runs so deep that denial of this, is very similar to Whites denying their conditioned superiority complex.
This issue of Colourism is very important, because it gives the order for justice and redress.
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Ayinde
Sep 21st, 2004, 6:11pm
"Light/brown skinned African are particularly guilty of this"
For Colorism to exist in Black communities (and it does), both light-skinned and dark-skinned Blacks would have had to internalize the same false values. So it is both sides that have to make adjustments. The issue is that few consider it, and therefore most light-skinned and dark-skinned ones unconsciously support it.
I feel people can appreciate that women should check the views and reactions of males on gender issues before trusting them. The same should apply in relation to Colorism, and all other negative discriminations. More informed ones could easily see the validity in checking the views and reactions of whites on the issues of racism and white privileges before trusting them.
Those who are more aware and make attitude adjustments in relation to the many social issues would obviously be better people.
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