WHO TELL AMERICA THEY SAVING BAGHDAD?

[douglarasta]

 >:(WHO REALLY TELL AMERICA THAT THEY SAVING IRAQ..HAVE ANY OF U ALL TAKEN THE TIME TO SEE THE MTV SPECIALS AIRING ALL WEEK?..IT IS THE MOST UPSETTING SITE TO EVER GRACE A TV SCREEN..THE DEATH TOLE IS BEYOND COUNTABLE AND YET THE TRY TO TELL ME THAT THEY R HELPING..HAVE ANY OF U ALL SEEN BBC LATELY?...THE ECONOMY IS IN SHAMBLES...EVEN A SIMPLE THING AS A LIBRARY IS A LUXURY..HOW DO THEY EXPECT TO BUILD A SOCIETY WHEN THE VERY BACKBONE OF ANY SOCIETY,EDUCTION, IS NOT EVEN ACCESSIBLE...SCAVENGING IN THE RUBBLES THEY SEARCH FOR OLDEN TEXTS SO THAT THEY COULD CONTINUE ON THEIR JOURNEY FOR A BETTER WORLD...CHILDREN ARE LIKE DIRT BLOBS ON THE SIDE OF THE STREETS AND YET ALL THE SOLDIERS SAY IS THAT IT WILL TAKE TIME TO GET BETTER..WELL TIME IS WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE AND IT IS TIME THAT BUSH DID NOT WANT TO TAKE IN ORDER TO LET THE UN DEAL WITH SADDAM ACCORDINGLY..BEING IN THE FOREFRONT OF THE DISASTERS CAUSED BY AMERICA..WE PEOPLE CANNOT FULLY EXPRESS OURSELVES ACCORDINGLY...I JUST HOPE THAT ALL OUR EYES ARE KEPT OPEN BECAUSE IT IS BEYOND SICKENING THE SITE THAT I HAVE SEEN.....  

[douglarasta]

 :-/ ETHNOCENTRISM

   
"IS THIS THE GREAT AMERICA THAT CAME TO SAVE US?" THESE ARE THE WORDS OF MANY AN IRAQIAN...."THIS IS HOW THEY COME TO SAVE US?"...WHAT HAVE THEY DONE?...IMAGINE RIGHT NOW AS YOU READ THIS POST A BOMB EXPLODES OUTSIDE YOUR VERY WINDOW...WHEN THE MUSLIMS TOOK OVER TRINI..WE WERE FOR THE MOST PART SCARED TO DEATH ..IMAGINE SUCH A TIME AS 1990 MULTIPLIED BY INFINITI AND THEN WE COULD COMPLAIN ABOUT WHO WE DATE OR LIKE OR DISLIKE.....ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS "SOME PPL WANT IT ALL BUT I DON'T WANT NOTHING AT ALL..."MS. KEYS...ETHNOCENTRISM IS ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS FOR SLAVERY, THE JEWISH MASSACARES, RELIGIOUS DESTRUCTIONS AND NOW THE aBOMBination OF IRAQ...FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW ETHNOCENTRISM IS THE JUDGING OF ANOTHER'S CULTURE ON THE SOLE BASIS OF YOUR OWN CULTURE...WHICH WAS THE MAIN REASON FOR THE GREAT WALL OF CHINA..AS THEY SAW THEIR CULTURE AS SUPERIOR TO ANY OTHER....DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR...NEED I SAY THE TERMS...THIRD WORLD NATION AND SECOND WORLD NATION AND THE EVER FAVOURITE FIRST WORLD NATION.......ANYWAY...WHAT I QUARRELLING ABOUT...THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS SOME THINGS WILL NEVER CHANGE....YOU CAN GO BACK TO YOUR REGULARY SCHEDULED PROGRAMS NOW...  ...

[Oshun_Auset]

Quote by Douglarasta..."SOME THINGS WILL NEVER CHANGE"

The only thing constant is change. The enemy of man wants us to believe that the way it is, is the way it always has been, and the way it always will be. The only thing constant is change. The reason that the elitists want us thinking that "some things will never change" is so that we will lay down and do nothing to make our/the people's current shituation better.  That way the few can continue to benefit off of the exploitation of the many.

[out_of_Zion]

I'm not one who approves of Bush and do plan to vote against him this fall, but your opinion is not fact Douglarasta.  

See the poll conducted among IRAQIS that was on the BCC today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

It's proof that changes are in the making, though slow they may be.  Are they changes that have come at great cost?  Undoubetedly.  Are they brought about by entirely benevolent means?  Hardly.  But they are positive changes.  Why?   Quite realistically, because it could not have gotten any worse.  You look at countries, though, when they hit the point that Iraq hit - which is what one would term hopeless, in every sense of the word, and it takes time to rebuild - and more than rebuild - to do so democratically.

That, perhaps, is the biggest challenge, because as you pointed out, their educational system is among the world's worst, and a democratic rule necessitates an educated public.

[gman]

Poll results presented on the BBC are "not fact" either.
I suppose you are right that after living under a brutal U.S.-supported dictator, then being bombed into rubble with tens of thousands of lives lost and millions more (especially children) lost by disease during the U.S.-sponsored embargo, then getting the s*it bombed out of them yet again, things could indeed "not have gotten any worse" for the Iraqis. Compared to being bombed and dying like flies of dysentery (as before), the new situation of living in rubbled cities with no electricity, working for months without a paycheck, being shot by U.S. forces every once in a while when you participate in a demonstration or they mistake you and your family for 'terrorists', and watching your ancient heritage being destroyed and looted, must seem like peaches and cream to the Iraqis, relatively speaking. I'm not sure I would call it 'change for the better' though. That's sort of like saying that if I just chopped off your arm, and now I've stopped actually chopping and am just standing their watching you bleed and offering you a couple of band-aids, then that is 'change for the better'.
By the way I think the U.S. also has one of the worst educational systems in the world. And it's about as 'democratic' as Iraq was under Saddam Hussein. Who are you voting for against Bush? I guarantee you he represents the same interests when you get right down to it.

[iyah360]

Iraq had one of the best educational systems in the middle east under Saddam Hussein. It also had a large professional class . . . who during the sanctions were decimated, with some of the children of this class forced into prostitution because of the drastic downturn in the economy.

It is interesting how these facts are quickly forgotten by the onslaught of the propaganda machine. As a great quote whose author I cannot recall says: "Truth is always the first casualty of war"

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9910/14/iraq.schools/

http://quixote-quest.org/resources/national_international/NPR_IraqEdEmbargoed_110201.html

http://www.socialism.com/fsarticles/vol24no1/iraqiwomen.html

http://www.globalwomenstrike.net/English/Iraqimansstory.htm

[Oshun_Auset]

Gman and Iyah 360...

thanks for bringing up the truth...In East Africa(Kenya in particular...but also anywhere else where there was a large muslims population...the coast mainly) there used to be an expression....if you were living well, they would say you were living "like a Baghdadi"...Boy has that recent reality been warped by negative propaganda from the American empirical powers...

[out_of_Zion]

So all hail Saddam?  

Sometimes you guys confuse the hell out of me.  I certainly don't approve of the motives in removing him, but Iraq is only the better for it and that's what the polls represent.  It's hardly Cuba where everyone loves the dictator.  They FEARED Saddam and were partying when the US caught him.  Again, I'm not saying "three cheers to George W and the US," but that's just a fact: Iraqis are relieved.

[iyah360]

yeah, all hail saddam, that is what we are saying.

sheesh.

[Oshun_Auset]

LOL  How many Iraquis have you talked to lately? Or are you just going off of the propoganda that is given to the outside world via the tel-lie-vision?

[out_of_Zion]

It's hardly propganda when it comes in the form of documentaries which feature Iraqis speaking.  So, yes, in a sense I have talked to an Iraqi.  Such is the world of technology.  I can't believe you are insinuating in any form that the Iraqi people were happier or living better under Saddam's rule when he was filling mass graves with their relatives and fostering a militaristic godless regime.  

I suppose you are going to tell me I've been tricked by the documentaries, that the mass graves and torture devices (a really humane one was the acid drop chambers) were fabricated and the people interviewed were payed...and that behind the cameras they were cracking open bottles of fine wine and eating cheese.  

The propaganda that occurs is the hype.  The belief that it was a benevolent action on the part of the US gov't to help the poor Iraqi people.  They did help the Iraqi people; it just wasn't benevolently motivated.  To actually deny the fact that a positive change was made, though, is completely ludicrous.

[iyah360]

Look at the links I posted. A lot of people were doing a hell of a lot better until sanctions started destroying the country: educationally, healthcare wise, the status of women, a standard of living equal to that of Greece, etc.

Why can't you see that reality is not the simple duality that you insist? Because one states that the standard of living in Iraq was pretty decent under Saddam doesn't mean that he was a good person, or that his regime was good, etc. This is WAY too simplistic. Every government on EARTH has skeletons in its closet, and all can and DO come out when the powers that be want to demonize a nation and get the support of the masses for a war. The US wasn't saying jack shi* when they were supporting Saddam in the 80's about the gassing of Kurds with Western supplied weapons. As soon as an agenda was concocted and the power balance needed to be shifted, out come into the light of the public eye the allegations and atrocities.

There are ALWAYS discontented and oppressed people in EVERY nation, the fact is that the imperialistic powers can use the FORCE of the discontented people in different countries to effect change which is in the imperial powers interest when need be . .. and  then USURP the power vaccuum which is created from the chaos inflicted.

Ordo Ab Chao - look it up.

It's hardly propganda when it comes in the form of documentaries which feature Iraqis speaking.  So, yes, in a sense I have talked to an Iraqi.  Such is the world of technology.  I can't believe you are insinuating in any form that the Iraqi people were happier or living better under Saddam's rule when he was filling mass graves with their relatives and fostering a militaristic godless regime.  

I suppose you are going to tell me I've been tricked by the documentaries, that the mass graves and torture devices (a really humane one was the acid drop chambers) were fabricated and the people interviewed were payed...and that behind the cameras they were cracking open bottles of fine wine and eating cheese.  

The propaganda that occurs is the hype.  The belief that it was a benevolent action on the part of the US gov't to help the poor Iraqi people.  They did help the Iraqi people; it just wasn't benevolently motivated.  To actually deny the fact that a positive change was made, though, is completely ludicrous.

[Oshun_Auset]

Iyah 360....Thank you for clarifying the point we were trying to make....'nuff said!

[out_of_Zion]

After looking at those links, I have to admit this situation is much more complex than I thought it to be at first glance and that I don't fully understand the dynamics of the sanctions and history behind all of this.

I've been viewing this issue on a much more simplistic level, I think - asking: Are Iraqis better off now than they were before?  Everything I've seen has been a resounding "yes."  However, I guess the point is that things were worse before as a result of the US' OWN sanctions and basically they're only cleaning up their own mess.  Is that somewhat on target?  

[Oshun_Auset]

 ;)That's about right...The U.S. imperialists have a history of supporting(militarily and financially) "dictators"...most of the time getting them into office in the first place via CIA covert opperations inside a particular country(Sadaam and Bin Laden both are former CIA employees)...and then coming in and playing the "savior" role to get the leader that was hand picked by them out of power. It just so happens that most of the time it is in a country where the U.S. has vested economic interests...but it is all supposed to be a coincidence...