WHY did Eurpean/White people do this to the world?

[Rootsie]

I think that the limited territory and resources of Europe has always influenced their motivations for colonialist/imperialist expansion, up to and including Hitler, who looked to the east for his 'breadbasket' since Africa was already 'taken.'

This does not explain the United States' behavior, except that by the time they became a country imperialist behavior was already a European habit.

It does not follow that everyone with environmental or population pressures resorts to aggression. But I have been reading about the history of North Africa, and it is true there that seasonal environmental pressures did often lead to conflicts between normally peaceful peoples.

One thing that has been baffling me is why some used the capacities of their big human brains to develop destructive technologies, while others devoted their technological skills to other areas all together, and still others conceive of no need to put their energies into technology beyond a very basic level. So-called 'primitive' people are usually labelled so because of their disinterest in 'progress.' What I think we see reflected in ancient cultures like the Pygmies is that the highest value is put on harmony with natural cycles and a stweardship relation with the natural world, rather than the Genesis 'dominion over nature.'

I see that a lot of the problems of the last 2000 years stems from a literalistic Judeo-Christian ideology that promotes xenophobia, hatred for women, a dominator attitude twoards nature, a 'Chosen People' idea that promotes a superiority complex, and the idea of an 'exclusive revelation'
(God talks to us but not to 'them') which has at various times  made it justifiable in many minds to eliminate people in order to 'save them.'

I reject that argument that it's not the religion, it's the people who say they belong to it. I would say that racism, imperialism, colonialism are logical extensions of Judeo-Christian ideology. Since Jesus is set to 'return' at some later date, and until then humans are pretty much on their own, and since Christians are told they can be forgiven at the last minute for their depraved and evil actions, hey, anything goes.

Ideas always come before actions, and these ideas clearly set the stage for a ghastly holocaust.

And behind every 'superiority complex' of course lies a screaming insecurity.  You only feel the need to assert your superiority over others when you have deep feelings of inferiority.

Even though imperial aggression existed long before the past 500 years in Europe, and even though race was sometimes used as a pretext for slaughter, it was the 'modern' Europeans who grabbed onto this idea wholesale and devoted their 'science' and their philosophy to create a hierarchy of race, suggesting that non-white people were a different and lower species of human altogether, and this was clearly to serve the interests of capitalism. Every bit of the 'capital' that fueled the Industrial Revolution and the rise of modern Europe and US was pillaged from Africa, America, and Asia. The Europeans of the past 300 years especially invented out of whole cloth a hieracrchy of race and used it to justify their behavior, to the length of suggesting that they were merely hastening nature's work, helping evolution along. They had to see themselves as great 'humanists' because they were "Christian,' after all. This was merely a justification. What they were interested in ultimately was more, and more, and more...

When people whose value system is about living in alignment with the natural and celestial order encounter people whose value system tells them it's all about 'progress' and 'dominion,' and by extension the domination of others, and they have the destructive technology to back it up, voila its the 'New World Order'.

The Europeans were cut off from their African ancestry. They were like orphans, without a sense of their own roots. When Christian ideology came along, they built a world-view based on their own feeling of bereavment and lostness. They used material gain to compensate for their deep insecurity.  I don't think there is necessarily any one answer to this question. This is how I have been seeing it lately.

Rootsie

[kristine]

"The Europeans were cut off from their African ancestry. They were like orphans, without a sense of their own roots. When Christian ideology came along, they built a world-view based on their own feeling of bereavment and lostness. They used material gain to compensate for their deep insecurity. "

I am thinking this is  important .. what/how was the reason / circumstance that cut off the Europeans from their African Ancestry?

[seshatasefekht7]

peace and hotep,

the isis (yssis) papers......the keys to the colors.
by DR. FRANCES CRESS WELSING.

chapter 2: the origene of alienation, anxiety and narcissism.

.....and much more on the how/why/what/where of people who classify themselves as 'white'.

positive solutions to problems are all around us just waiting to be utilized.

freedomisahapislave

[Bantu_Kelani]

I am thinking this is  important .. what/how was the reason / circumstance that cut off the Europeans from their African Ancestry?

It does not take much imagination to assume that it is simply GREED, the refusal to follow the primary spiritual directives, guidelines and tools to empower health and natural harmony. The violence of killing humans comes from a willful CARNAL desire to kill humanity, ecology and animals. Neither the lack of land, water, animal population, atmosphere or whatever is the cause of the Caucasian destructive behavior. I recur that a few groups of people isolated in certain areas of the world live in harsh environments, isolation and lack of resources. We call them "backward people" because they continue to live in harmony with the original commandment of the Creator Source and therefore enjoy superior vitality, endurance and general well being. Some forests Indians of South America, some Polynesians, and some Bantu tribes still live in this "marginalized" or "primitive" manner. Some people have just their mindset to destroy. Denial and repudiation stem form the resistance to evolve to holiness.


Bantu Kelani.

[seshatasefekht7]

peace and hotep,

Neither the lack of land, water, animal population, atmosphere or whatever is the cause of the Caucasian destructive behavior.

Bantu Kelani.

alienation is the very same dynamic that pushes human beings away from respectful and harmonious relationships with the physical enviroment, leading to the pollution and destruction of the planet. most important, the alienation dynamic forces the individual away from all manifestations of self-understanding and self-respect, including the most fundamental respect---respect for one's genetic makeup.......welsing

now bantu-kelani, you may wish to alienate welsing but at least invalidate what she proposes. she has suffered for her propositions.

if what she offers is in the least bit accurate we may find that what is wrong withe 'whiteness' is its african origene.

if african ARROGANCE, IGNORANCE AND STUBBORNNESS is at fault we should be willing to reclaiming our prodical chile and place our ring upon his finger.

the parents of oedipus or romulus and rhemus are at fault. we will pay dearly for what was done and not resolved.

respectfully, you or no ones can imagine what  effect 20000 years on the ice aged plains of eurasia has on the soul unless you veiw hell through blue eyes.  

freedomisahapislave

[hailiniemperor]

Bantu: I will say that to my knowledge the Africans of the Ghana Empire after 700AD engaged in slavery. In the bible suposedly the Israelites were slaves in Egypt. I believe that the Romans played a big part in primitive slavery in Africa. But I would like you to give me proof that the Africans who engaged in conquest did not plunder. The act of conquest is plundering in itself.

[hailiniemperor]

Bantu:  "Dynasty XVIII, 1500-1300 B.C. Egypt attained the summit of her power. She became the arbitress of the whole world. Sayce says that they returned with new rolls of conquered provinces and with the PLUNDER and tribute of the east....Thotmes III was of all the Pharoahs, unquestionably the greatest....In the Hall of Ancestors, Karnak, Thotmess III, may be seen making offerings before sixty-one of his ancestors. This will give us some idea of how many Ethiopian monarchs had sat upon the Egyptian throne....From his expeditions into Asia he returned with enormous SPOIL. He was undoubtedly, the Alexander of the Egyptian history. He conquered the known world. Thotmes III carved the names of 628 VANQUISHED nations and captured cities on the walls at Karnak....The next king of this dynasty was Amenhotep II, son of Thotmes III. The Egyptians under his lead captured Nineveh. He brought back the bodies of seven kings that he had taken in battle. He put up their heads as TROPHIES on the walls of Thebes.....Thotmes III, Amenophis III, and Amenophis IV were in apperance unmixed Negro types. Darwin was struck by the extremely Ethiopian characteristics of the statue of Amenophis III." (Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire by Drusilla Dunjee Houston pg. 99-103)

Now Bantu, I never said anything about the Indegenous people of the earth practicing cultural genocide. I did say something about the Indegenous people of the earth practicing conquest, of which the former information bequeathed upon you makes quite obvious. I will never forgive the European/White men that participated in the genocide of 100,000,000 black slaves, just as I will never forgive Lucipher, but to say that EVIL and Anti-Life originated with one specific people, no matter what race they may be, is the epitome of ignorance in itself. Bantu, your thinking is utterly characteristic of a biased nature.

[praxis]

Greetings. A fascinating conversation.

I think it is a mistake to look at cultural development removed from a notion of ascendancy/evolution/time. Time is the master. To ignore the process of cultural growth through time is to deny the gift of eternal life culture represents. You as an individual will wither and fade, but your culture will thrive and grow. Evolution.

To pin the terrible onus of slavery on one particular group is to deny the veracity of historical record and any notion of cultural evolution. The enslavement of one's neighbors is a stage of cultural development.  It is true that some tribal groups did not practice slavery. That is because the tribal/animistic state of being is a pre-slavery state. Slavery begins to arise in the historical record when warlords and hedonistic empires begin to consolidate disparate tribes into monolithic societies. The slave state emerges from the patchwork of tribal existence; you can't enslave a people until they are identified as A People. Slavery is indeed born of a impulsive, immoral, and guiltless mindset. This is a mindset that EVERY culture must develop through. Doubt this? Then look at your own children.

The development of a single child mirrors the development of an entire culture. A newborn is helpless and frightened and comforted only by the familiar embrace of a loving mother. As a child interacts with its environment, it undergoes a series of lessons about the nature of reality and relationships. This process is a response to various life conditions. Soon the world becomes a magical place to explore. But then exploration turns to domination and the quest to control and influence ones surroundings. The so-called "terrible twos" are when children are exercising their impulsiveness. They are immoral and guiltless. Yes, they are at the psychological developmental stage of a "slave state". But the child continues to grow and develop, eventually leaning respect, honesty, spirituality, and all the other virtues. If EVERY child develops in a similar pattern, then why can't we acknowledge that EVERY culture develops in the same way. In other words, slavery emerges in the historical record in response to particular life conditions, and it passes into the dust bin as new conditions emerge.

Just like the development of a particular child can be retarded, the development of a particular culture can be retarded. I think it is fair to say that the dominant Anglo-Saxon culture is currently in a retarded state of psychological development. Arrested development.

Slavery is not unique to any one people. It is recorded in various epochs in the Far East, Africa, and South and North America.  One particular race (White folks) did excel at the practice of slavery, but this had nothing to do with their skin color, melanin levels, or inherent wickedness. It was simply a terrible juxtaposition of developmental processes; psychological immaturity (retardation) with burgeoning technological sophistication.  

[Bantu_Kelani]

Bantu:  "Dynasty XVIII, 1500-1300 B.C. Egypt attained the summit of her power. She became the arbitress of the whole world. Sayce says that they returned with new rolls of conquered provinces and with the PLUNDER and tribute of the east....Thotmes III was of all the Pharoahs, unquestionably the greatest....In the Hall of Ancestors, Karnak, Thotmess III, may be seen making offerings before sixty-one of his ancestors. This will give us some idea of how many Ethiopian monarchs had sat upon the Egyptian throne....From his expeditions into Asia he returned with enormous SPOIL. He was undoubtedly, the Alexander of the Egyptian history. He conquered the known world. Thotmes III carved the names of 628 VANQUISHED nations and captured cities on the walls at Karnak....The next king of this dynasty was Amenhotep II, son of Thotmes III. The Egyptians under his lead captured Nineveh. He brought back the bodies of seven kings that he had taken in battle. He put up their heads as TROPHIES on the walls of Thebes.....Thotmes III, Amenophis III, and Amenophis IV were in apperance unmixed Negro types. Darwin was struck by the extremely Ethiopian characteristics of the statue of Amenophis III." (Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire by Drusilla Dunjee Houston pg. 99-103)

Now Bantu, I never said anything about the Indegenous people of the earth practicing cultural genocide. I did say something about the Indegenous people of the earth practicing conquest, of which the former information bequeathed upon you makes quite obvious. I will never forgive the European/White men that participated in the genocide of 100,000,000 black slaves, just as I will never forgive Lucipher, but to say that EVIL and Anti-Life originated with one specific people, no matter what race they may be, is the epitome of ignorance in itself. Bantu, your thinking is utterly characteristic of a biased nature.

Your reference speak of plunder (whatever that means), still  nO ancient records show information that black Africans caused genocide, disease, famine and degradation to other peoples before the invasions of the Europeans and the sand people of the desert . For thousand of years, before the invasions, Africa was recognized as the cradle of the highest level of spiritual civilization. Many wise men and scholars from all over the world including Yeshua, Plato and Pythagoras came to study under indigenous African priests. Example, in the "Iliad" Homer described our ancient ancestors I quote: "as the most distant of the human race, but also and the most righteous and best beloved of Gods.."

You also mention the myths of the Jewish people that are recorded in the bible. To those of us who don't believe the biblical accounts are accurate, because there is no archeological evidence for the stories therein, there's no question at all about it. Even as to the allegorical tale of the captivity of the Israelites in Egypt (Mizraim or Khemet its true name), there are an indication in the bible that Abraham married the Egyptian woman Hagar and so produced the African Semites (Gen. 16;17). His Black Egyptian mother Hagar married Ishmael off to an Egyptian Khemite so producing a solid African line (Gen. 21:21). We have Joseph the son of Israel marrying an Egyptian daughter of the High priest (Genesis 41:45). After the Exodus we have proof that the 70 who went down into Africa populated to over 400,000 through marriage with African Egyptians!
The Bible also calls the Egyptians wise men. In fact, the Black Egyptians priests taught the sacred mysteries, arts and science to the Israelites during their captivity. The mythological Black Israelite we know as Moses was a representative of the secret schools of Egypt who was adopted and educated by the ruling class of Egypt. A careful comparison with the Caucasian chattel slavery we noticed that the Caucasian slavers never taught Black slaves anything. ALL the records relating to the Arab and European slave masters relate how they ripped Black Africans from the only homes they'd ever known to bring them like ANIMALS to Americas and Arabia. History also tells how the Caucasian slavers continually kept Blacks in extreme poverty, persecuted Black scientists and teachers ruined their temples and keept ALL the classical knowledge for themselves. They did not marry but raped, whipped, and lynched Black Africans for CENTURIES. If you pick up and read any book on chattel slavery in West Indian and North and South America, you will find out!

For your information, the slavery that existed in Africa during pre-colonial time was very minor and more like indentured SERVITUDE. You refuse to realize, it is European Imperialism that has caused sharp divisions between Africans. Before the Arab and European contact, Ashanti would not sell or kill Ashanti, Igbo would not sell or kill Igbo, Hausa would not sell or kill Hausa etc...It is the whites that built slaves ports and castles, displace our people and caused harm to them. Most of the information on slavery in Africa currently circulating misses one major ingredient, that is, eyewitness accounts of the descendants of African tribes who enslaved. Much of that has written about slavery in Africa come from European people not form the tribes of the Black African slavers themselves! This makes European information heavily diluted with falsehood to make the Africans look worse than them.

There is no doubt in my mind the counterfeit historical and anthropological ideas and theories of European scholars are intended so the White Establishment continues its exploitation and oppression of Black Africans. Despite these well-known DISTORTIONS the whites so-called Africanists have the audacity to uphold these lies on Black forums. When conscious and educated Black folks relate the TRUTH, that has nothing to do with white racism, it is simply relating REALITY! I have come to the realization that most Caucasians know exactly what's going on. When they come to Black forums faking like they are one of us only to support lies and propaganda, I understand they are not interested in the TRUTH. They only want to refute the savage behavior so common in their nature. Poor souls.

respectfully, you or no ones can imagine what  effect 20000 years on the ice aged plains of eurasia has on the soul unless you veiw hell through blue eyes.  

In spite of the appellation, the "ice age" in Europe and central Asia, was not cold all the time. There were frequent warm intervals periods. In these parts of the world the first modern humans, survived in areas of abundant grasslands by hunting herds of grazing animals. They found shelter in caves or made huts of mammoth bones. They were not living in icier or colder climates than the nowadays Indian Eskimos or rural white Russians in the northern parts of Greenland and eastern Siberia. The wicked and unrighteous behavior of the rest of the Caucasian race just stem from an unyielding lush for power. The great majority of white folks live and enjoy the fruits of its evils perhaps that why they refuse to acknowledge that what is obvious.


Bantu Kelani.

[Bantu_Kelani]

Slavery is not unique to any one people. It is recorded in various epochs in the Far East, Africa, and South and North America. One particular race (White folks) did excel at the practice of slavery, but this had nothing to do with their skin color, melanin levels, or inherent wickedness. It was simply a terrible juxtaposition of developmental processes; psychological immaturity (retardation) with burgeoning technological sophistication.  

If white folks excel at it, then it is prevalent and characteristic of their collective behavior.

Slavery begins to arise in the historical record when warlords and hedonistic empires begin to consolidate disparate tribes into monolithic societies. The slave state emerges from the patchwork of tribal existence.

From  prehistorical times (even the times when all modern humans were just farmers or nomadic herders at end of the ice age 10,000 BC ) warriors band of the Caucasian stock from central Asia were raiding Western Europe and the regions of the darker people in the Mediterranean, Mesopotamia, the Oriental lands and the Nile Valley creating terror whenever they landed. They increased wars and caused the decline of many civilizations. Again, it seems that fierce military campaigns and acquisition of lands was primeval of the Caucasian race.


Bantu kelani.

[Oshun_Auset]

The wicked and unrighteous behavior of the rest of the Caucasian race just stem from an unyielding lush for power.
Bantu Kelani.

Bantu Kelani...thanks for the clarification...and thank you everyone for the input to a lively conversation.

What does everyone think developed 'this unyielding lust of power' in European civilization? Do you think it is the unlucky combination of spiritual immaturity of a younger human population, and/or the added affect of technologically "advanced" weapons systems? Or is it just happenstance?

By the way I see nobody has touched on the "coincidence" that the Aryan invasion and subsequent oppression of the Dravidian/Dalit people of the Indian Subcontinent also had a caste system "coincidently" based on skin colour....What made history repeat itself in a similar manner with the Trans-Atlantic slave trade and colonization hundreds of years later? Is this just happenstance or is something else going on?  

[Tyehimba]

To pin the terrible onus of slavery on one particular group is to deny the veracity of historical record and any notion of cultural evolution. The enslavement of one's neighbors is a stage of cultural development.  It is true that some tribal groups did not practice slavery. That is because the tribal/animistic state of being is a pre-slavery state. Slavery begins to arise in the historical record when warlords and hedonistic empires begin to consolidate disparate tribes into monolithic societies. The slave state emerges from the patchwork of tribal existence; you can't enslave a people until they are identified as A People. Slavery is indeed born of a impulsive, immoral, and guiltless mindset. This is a mindset that EVERY culture must develop through. Doubt this? Then look at your own children.

So you are saying that the reason why some tribes did not practise slavery is because they were not advanced enough?  'because the tribal/animistic state of being is a pre-slavery state'? This borders on being nonsensical.History does not show this. Even so, people are discussing slavery, a distinction has to be made between the chattel slavery practised by the Europeans and the servitude as practised by the Africans. By no  stretch of the imagination could the servitude by the Africans be likened to the European chattel slavery, because they both are fundamentally different.

If EVERY child develops in a similar pattern, then why can't we acknowledge that EVERY culture develops in the same way.

Even if there may be some similarities between cultures, the reality is that cultures develop and evolve in very different ways given their environment. History just doesn't support the notion that all cultures must have inherent in their traditions impulsive, immoral, and guiltless mindsets . The traditions of most indigenous people do not show these traits even if they may have been displayed by individuals at some time.

This reaction is often one that is generated as a defense mechanism to deal with the guilt of belong to a race that committed the worse atrocities in human history. The reality is that even though chattel slavery has ended, the mindset and oppressive system that facilitated slavery is still very much present. So people especially Whites have to come to   terms with their own role and complicity is the present system of false values and privileges and not try to sidestep the injustices by saying that all cultures have evil or....whatever defense mechanism is convienent. It is imperative that people deal with themselves from who they are. So if a person is White, Indian or whatever, they  must deal with themselves from the uniqueness of that experience.

Tyehimba

[iyah360]

Maybe this will help.

http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1066661403

[Oshun_Auset]

So you are saying that the reason why some tribes did not practise slavery is because they were not advanced enough?  'because the tribal/animistic state of being is a pre-slavery state'? This borders on being nonsensical.History does not show this. Even so, people are discussing slavery, a distinction has to be made between the chattel slavery practised by the Europeans and the servitude as practised by the Africans. By no  stretch of the imagination could the servitude by the Africans be likened to the European chattel slavery, because they both are fundamentally different.


Even if there may be some similarities between cultures, the reality is that cultures develop and evolve in very different ways given their environment. History just doesn't support the notion that all cultures must have inherent in their traditions impulsive, immoral, and guiltless mindsets . The traditions of most indigenous people do not show these traits even if they may have been displayed by individuals at some time.

This reaction is often one that is generated as a defense mechanism to deal with the guilt of belong to a race that committed the worse atrocities in human history. The reality is that even though chattel slavery has ended, the mindset and oppressive system that facilitated slavery is still very much present. So people especially Whites have to come to   terms with their own role and complicity is the present system of false values and privileges and not try to sidestep the injustices by saying that all cultures have evil or....whatever defense mechanism is convienent. It is imperative that people deal with themselves from who they are. So if a person is White, Indian or whatever, they  must deal with themselves from the uniqueness of that experience.

Tyehimba

Tyehimba,

Ashe!

[praxis]

Tyehimba

Correct. As abhorrent as it may sound, the practice of slavery was an economic advancement over hunting/gathering economies. And it is not non sensical.  Remember, the purpose of economic activity is to produce wealth. Slaves produce wealth faster than foraging. Cato the Elder referred to his slaves as "talking tools". When machines were able to outproduce slaves, slaves became obsolete. This is why chattel slavery no longer exists in First World economies but can STILL be found in the developing world.

The origin of slavery itself is thought to be in ancient Mesopotamia, or modern Iraq,  but slavery probably arose simultaneously in several locations. As I stated, slavery arises in response to emerging life conditions. Mesopotamia was one of the first civilizations to evolve estate style agriculture and to move toward a notion of individual property. The parable of Cain and Abel is the parable of the advent of the agricultural revolution. Nomadic herders and hunter/gathers don't require slaves. Tillers of the soil do.  Who killed who?

African "family servitude" is not somehow different than European "chattel" slavery. There is no "But..." in the practice of slavery. This is a cop out. You are welcome to call African slavery simply "servitude" if you want, but I won't partake of that particular whitewash. The fact that Africans allowed slaves to intermarry their families and live in their homes doesn't change the nature of the relationship. Why? Because the nature of the relationship is what defines servitude. Again, slavery requires a notion of property, and property requires a notion of wealth. When you count people as accumulated wealth, you are a slave holder. Do you find that African slavery is somehow more palatable because it was perpetrated by Africans?

Precision is important. Yes, cultures evolve in very different ways given their unique environments, but this does not deny that all cultures DEVELOP through similar stages. Again, look at my analogy. A baby must learn to babble before talk (no matter what language), to crawl before it can walk, in any culture, at any time, in any place. Development occurs in a stepwise fashion in every culture....faster in some, slower in others. Just like a baby growing.

Ask yourself why every major dominant power in world history has a slave owning ancestry. Cultures that were successful in the slave trade evolved stronger economies which resulted in the greater accumulation of wealth and knowledge. The Arabs were master slave traders who plundered Africa before the Europeans. The Greeks and Romans were prolific slave owners who plundered the intellectual achievements of the Egyptian empires which in turn had accumulated vast stores of wealth and knowledge due to their own slavery practices. The Toltecs, Aztecs, and Mayans? Slave masters, all. The most powerful civilization on the planet today is also the perpetrator of the most abhorrent form of slavery and one of the last to abolish slavery! This is not a coincidence.

It is an intellectual and moral cop out to claim that anyone who studies the history of slavery is simply trying to assuage the guilt of their ancestry. The history of enslavement culminates with the European atrocities perpetrated on Africans. But this is only the terrible culmination, not the middle or the beginning. It behooves us to know the entire story from beginning to end to better understand why it was a successful development strategy and what can be done about this shared legacy.