The whites who cause the problem...

[Oshun_Auset]

"I just want to reason and grow, not to explode, to destroy anything, but to develop and change perceptions and realities in the slowlly but surelly process of going out of the dark.

And strategically speaking, it's not necessary to be against somenthing if you are not in favor, check colonialistic strategies and you will see what I mean. Better to learn with this all and learn the oriental strategy from the martial arts who teach us to use the enemies' force against itself in a gentle and cool way...no need to use force, you see what I mean!!!"

I want to reason and destroy many thing...slowly but surely is reform. I see our difference now in reasoning. You want reform. I want revolution. We were put in the dark abruptly, there was no slowly but surely tactics used when it came to colonizing and subjugating us, so I don't feel we will come out of it as African people using reform. Force was used on us, and "Power only backs down in the face of more power, that is the nature of power" -Malcolm X...The elite are an organized force with the ideology of capiltalism as a guide . The subjugated masses of African people can only fight the current conditions by being an organized force with a common Pan-African ideology. If you are not fighting against capitalism you are being used as an instrument to perpetualing it's injustice, even if one is unaware of it.

I don't see us going anywhere just chanting down Babylon either...we have to organize. Organization is the answer. Words without deeds are dead and empty.

Bantu Kelani is correct. Racism will end when a balance is achieved. A balance in power. We have and economic and social problem with a political solution. When Africans are a critically organized force, and achieve self-determination, and liberation, then any racism projected towards us will be moot.

[Ras Mandingo]

IMO all this racial discrimination will end when balance between the races is established. This occurs when those wronged feel that they have been sufficiently compensated in whatever way that is consequential to them, and when those that have subjugated others, no longer do so!

B.K

Give thanks for the reply Bantu.

How do you think this balance will be achieved ?

From what you have pointed, I pressume, after financial compensation and end of wickdness...did I get right  ? How do you think this could take place ?

Just another thing, I feel reality in our countries are quite different, as in Brazil I feel a bigger inclination for looking for harmony and balance in relating with different races and sharing and assimilating cultural aspects of others who seems fine to you, brasilians are well open to cultures and we easilly assimilate what we find useful, reasonable with no problems, and this doesn't mean loosing your own reference but yet not beeing dogmatic or short minded...brazilians apreciate open minds and they don't care much for social rituals. Most of the blacks I know around consider themselves more brasilians then blacks and I even if I listen from them about reparations, I don't listen about repatriation.

What is the problem regarding racism ? Is the lack of respect that it envolves. How do we get this respect after centuries of slavery and dowpression ? The only way I see is developing and spreading information with culture. This is a way I see to get respect, to reeducate people and to change this ill mentality that sees one person superior then other. And for me, black superiority is as bad as white or anyone's superiority...that won't last long as any superiority is a fake.

Blessings,

Mandingo

[Ras Mandingo]

I want to reason and destroy many thing...slowly but surely is reform. I see our difference now in reasoning. You want reform. I want revolution. Force was used on us, and "Power only backs down in the face of more power, that is the nature of power" -Malcolm X...The elite are an organized force with the ideology of capiltalism as a guide . [/b]

Greetings Oshun...

How would you explain Ghandi and the non-violent revolution then And I know that malcolm X was inspired by Ghandi and his movement as well.

No, I'm not a reformer, but what is a revolution really and who are the real revolutionaries

I won't engage in any activiy that invloves the opressive use of violence, I only use violence to defende myself form agression but not to atack. And I think this requires a lot more control of a person, I have been learning how to know my reactions and control my emotions in my last 9 years playing capoeira.

Mandingo.

[Oshun_Auset]

Greetings Ras Mandingo(I apologize to everyone on the board I have ever responded to without first greeting and aknowledging them, that is very un-African of me, my fingers get ahead of my thoughts sometimes...)

Greetings Oshun...

How would you explain Ghandi and the non-violent revolution then And I know that malcolm X was inspired by Ghandi and his movement as well.

No, I'm not a reformer, but what is a revolution really and who are the real revolutionaries

I won't engage in any activiy that invloves the opressive use of violence, I only use violence to defende myself form agression but not to atack. And I think this requires a lot more control of a person, I have been learning how to know my reactions and control my emotions in my last 9 years playing capoeira.

Capitalism is an attack on humanity. Neo-colonialism, imperialism, oppression, and exploitation are agressive violent attacks, are they not? There is a daily oppressive use of violence by the elitite via the system they constructed to maintain control over the people's land and natural resources and exploit the fruits of our labour for the benefit of the few. Do you not see the daily sucking of the life blood of the people as an act of oppressive violence? Therefore revolution is self deffense. We are loosing more lives on a daily basis over time than we would in an organized revolution of the people. So is involuntary slow bleeding of the masses for the elite few better than voluntary revolutionary bleeding for our freedom(an actual beneficial purpose)? Slaves can't reform slavery, they must destroy it, and "Capitalism is the gentleman's slavery"-Osagyefo Kwame Nkrumah...the form may have changed, but the essence has remained the same. As spiritual people, we must deal with the essence of things.

As far as Ghandi goes. The threat of violence of the oppressed Indian masses of people(because they were organized) was what made his so-called peaceful revolution successful... Sometimes the threat of violence is enough because it is a display of the power that might have to be conteded with if challenged by the oppressor(This can also be seen in the fight for independence in Africa, although violence was used in many countries(Kenya and Zimbabwe for example), just the threat of future violence by an organized people in some areas caused the colonialists to pull out...unfortunately this was largely a pull out in form and not in essence because the oppressive political and economic systems of the former colonizers remained...A.K.A. capitalism...Malcolm understood this.  That is why organization is the key. No one man causes a revolution, it is an organized effort of the masses. We may have motivators and organizers that stand out as leaders, but mass organization is at the root of all successful social movements. We must study history through the eyes of the people. Not through the elitist version of history that likes to emphesize individuals to the point that the victories and movements of the PEOPLE are ignored or made insignificant.

Reform isn't a bad word. It just describes gradual change instead of a qualitative leap. Revolution is a qualitative leap by an organized movement. It is a change in essence, not a change in form. You are talking about reform. I am talking about revolution. Such was the difference between Malcolm and Martin, Garvey and Dubois(although Matin saw coincidentaly before his murder that the system capitlaism was largely the problem, and Dubois became a Pan-African socialist, abandoning integrationalist reform, and largely admitting that Garvey was correct).

So since you know the people are under attack every day, are you going to defend yourself/the people?

By the way...How do you plan to eliminate racism when it is a biproduct of/caused by capitalism, imperialism, and neo-colonialism. It is a necessary moral excuse and rationalization for the continued exploitation and oppression of the masses of people on the planet. Without eliminating the system that actually needs racism(as well as exploitation and oppression) to function(and this sytem created it in the first place), how are you going to get rid of said racism?...And how do you plan on doing it without organizing? Do you think their are benevolent slave masters who will one day have a change of heart and give power back to the slaves.  Doesn't that directly contradict their interests?

[Tian]

 Greetings Oshun Auset,

I support your position. I can feel your anger...

Greetings, Ras Mandingo

As a white man, I would like to share my humble opinions on some things that I have learned on this forum. I am still struggling to get a better understanding about how white racism and imperialism affects black people, but I think I have learned a few things. In the process I am also trying to help other whites to understand, something which is not always easy.

Philomena Essed defines racism as a global system of power relations, where the white group dominates the black group. This is opposed to the commonly held definition of racism as individual prejudice or discrimination based on skin color. Essed’s definition helps clarify a lot of things. Racism is not just individual prejudice and discrimination, but it is systemic. So there can be individual exceptions, but the generalizations about white people as a group still hold true. Racism does not need to be intentional at the individual level, in fact, most often it is not. A specific action is racist because of its consequences for black people, intentions are often irrelevant. Racism is often unconscious. It is part of the collective mentality or cultural ideology that white people have internalized. White people do not experience racism themselves, and usually have very limited understanding of it.

For example, American soldiers are mostly ordinary people, often poor ones. How can they abuse and kill Iraqi prisoners and civilians? How could they do exactly the same in Vietnam and other places? In my understanding, there is nothing “wrong” with these people at the individual level, other than the fact that they have unconsciously internalized the racist cultural ideology of America, where the non-white enemy has less value than animals.

White people are privileged relatively to blacks in this racist system, on the basis of skin color. We whites take many things for granted. Among these things is the Eurocentric assumption that we somehow know better, and that black people therefore should listen to us. For example, many white people who want to “save the world” still operate with this arrogant attitude. How come missionaries, aid workers or “peace negotiators” think they know something that non-white people do not already know? How come they think they are needed to save, help or teach Blacks? This is also part of our internalized white superiority complex. I am gradually becoming more and more aware of my own superiority assumptions, and trying to unlearn them.

I have seen many white people coming to this forum telling blacks “you have no right to be so aggressive and angry”. When I try to put myself in the black one’s position, I have no problem understanding how offensive and patronizing that behavior is. Indeed, it makes me angry as well.

Reverse racism does not exist. In the current system of racism, where the white group controls most of the worlds resources, economically, politically, militarily, culturally (media, education, church etc.), it is simply impossible for black people to oppress whites. I have learned that when black people are suspicious, angry or dismissive towards whites, it is a necessary defensive measure, to prevent being manipulated. History teaches black people that they cannot afford to trust whites. This does not imply that we whites are being discriminated against. It simply means we are denied our undeserved privileges. Trust is not something we are entitled to. It is a gift.

With respect,

Tian

[Tracey]

"Racism is not just individual prejudice and discrimination, but it is systemic. So there can be individual exceptions, but the generalizations about white people as a group still hold true. Racism does not need to be intentional at the individual level, in fact, most often it is not. A specific action is racist because of its consequences for black people, intentions are often irrelevant. Racism is often unconscious. It is part of the collective mentality or cultural ideology that white people have internalized. White people do not experience racism themselves, and usually have very limited understanding of it."           - Tian  

There are many good points to consider, as they address some of the important issues concerning 'unconscious racism' seen displayed over and over amongst the general mindset, behaviours, and attitudes of most White people. An important point to also consider is the fact that most Whites have never even really felt nor experienced any of the serious levels of racism on a personal level, and are typically quite unaware and insensitive of how it all came to be, much less how they might also be contributers to it. I would agree that unconscous racisim is an internalized component in much of the Eurocentric cultural ideaology/mindset.

Good intentions do make a poor mask and come over mostly as disingenuous and patronizing at best.  Most lack any real first hand experience to truly understand how to genuinely deal with the root of the problem. It is often this poor behaviour that exibits itself by attempting to make everyone "feel better" while failing miserably to address any of the core subsitive issues.

White people are usually the first ones to make the call for a colorblind world. It is a position that mostly a White one can afford to say not having their own race considered as something less than inferior. Most cannot even begin to realize how saying something like that could be taken as insulting by most non-whites and often get quite defensive when it is.

It is often the mispercieved idea to try and equalize all the races into one generic race of non-color. In a weak attempt to once again disassociate any complicity into the root of racism the colorblind theory trys to skip over any form of accountability thereby releasing the debt. "I had nothing to do with what my ancestors did" is a typical form of denial that blinds one from seeing how they do indeed still benefit undeservedly from a system that continues to profit off the backs of non-whites.

Yet what many fail to realize is that those who suffer the worst abuses from the system are indeed the only ones qualified enough to set the guilty ones free. No degree of colorblindness will set the scales of justice straight. It is for this reason that those who choose to come into this place to seek spiritual guidance come to learn that they will not get over these things quite so easily but will always need the help of those most receptive to the social ills of society to keep themselves in order.

To think that one can get over this on their own serves only to buffer false illusions and will quickly shatter when up against the realities of those who suffer legitimate experiences. They will remain insensitive to the lower levels of the system while continuing to perpetuate inhumane treatment to all peoples on a day to day basis.

But by allowing oneself to gather crucial insights from those most receptive to the 'lower ends' of the system, one can begin to get a step-by-step understanding into the depths of what it truly is like to experience the brunt of social ills, and learn how to adjust their behaviour.

It is important for those who sincerely seek to balance the scales to not fear being wrong or condemned. Rather ones should be willing to legitimately experience what many others illegitimately experience for their whole lives and learn to cultivate sincerity.

Trust is not something we are entitled to. It is a gift.

I totally agree )))


- Tracey