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25515 Posts in 9752 Topics by 980 Members Latest Member: - Roots Dawta Most online today: 64 (July 03, 2005, 11:25:30 PM)
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Yann
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« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2004, 06:50:35 PM »

Kelani’s comment here hit the nail on the head but I doubt if many here will understand the magnitude of her point:
 
Quote
"Further, how we the pure Black/Africans could believe in ourselves, and number one, create lifestyles that our ancestors expect from us if multiracial or biracial individuals with very light skin emphasizes being "Black/African" more than us? Aren't we the dark-skinned/pure Black Africans beautiful? Aren't our voices interesting? Do we deserve to control our own images? YES, YES, and YES. I am willingly to bet, the majority of mixed-raced Blacks militants who try to express excess pride in '"Blackness" don't even know they are actually taking away the Blacks with broad noses, thick lips and kinky hair attention within the Blacks community".
 
   
What struck me while looking at advertisements here at home (Trinidad) was the blatant pushing of a multi-racial agenda as the dominant aesthetic for Trinidadianess. The acceptable black media image is almost always the light-skinned or brown-skinned, curly haired look, the type that shows some recent mixing even though the skin may be brown. While Trinidad does have many races, and has had its share of race mixing, the deliberate image put across is that Trinidad is made up of this brown skin curly hair lighter-skinned population as a means of showing some cosmetic idea of racial harmony, and a more shaded idea of beauty to mask the white direction of their projection. Of course, ‘racial harmony’ and ‘national unity’ often mean that the experiences and images of the exploited must be hushed up to make way for a ‘hunki dori’ image that sells. However the reality is just the opposite. When you look at a cross section of the population, what you see is mainly dark-skinned African people and dark-skinned Indian people. The type of people that is reflected in the media as ‘black people’ is quite small by comparison.    
   
This illustrates part of a deeper problem that Kelani highlighted- the appropriation of blackness (in the specific case I cited, Trinidadianness) to fit an acceptable light-skinned media image.  It is an alarming spiral. To be media accepted is to be mixed, to be Trinidadian is to be mixed, and in effect, to be black (accepted black) is to be … mixed. The real black people are invisible; the black image is appropriated by the mixed image. Her words tie right into this scenario. Mixed people along with whites who have more privileges in the system over blacks can define and “refine” blackness in their own images.    
   
This is not to say that people of mixed ancestry cannot define themselves as they wish, and have a full right to claim both sides of their ancestry. Many do see themselves as ‘black’, although often they would like nothing better than to distance themselves from the dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans whom they try so hard to erase - the type of dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans that Kelani and Ayinde speak about, the ones that mostly came on slave ships, and the ones who got lynched.  
 
Because the system values the voices of the lighter ones more than those of the dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans, they get to be the ones that are the standard, the definers, and negate the voices, experiences and images of the blacker ones.  
 
More often that not, light-skinned ones can be viewed as part of the group that suppresses dark-skinned kinky-hair Black voices, by their presence in certain quarters. The fact that light-skinned ones do not get these points also demonstrates the earlier points made about sensitivity.  
 
As a dark-skinned kinky haired African myself I think I am paying respect to the other dark-skinned Blacks in the photos. Patriot Warrior posted pictures of beautiful black people and all many here have been showcasing is the defensives of mixed-race ones trying to show how they fit in. Maybe some have forgotten the dark-skinned Black children in the photos.  
 
Even trying to assess Kelani's color by just one photo on the site is to miss the fact that she does have an album on the site, and the pictures show more of her dark-skinned tone and not the flash light altered one in the photo to which you are referring. But I don’t think it is necessary to try to measure color with her to see the truth in the argument that was presented.
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Oshun_Auset
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« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2004, 09:44:44 PM »

Quote
Kelani’s comment here hit the nail on the head but I doubt if many here will understand the magnitude of her point:
 
 
   
What struck me while looking at advertisements here at home (Trinidad) was the blatant pushing of a multi-racial agenda as the dominant aesthetic for Trinidadianess. The acceptable black media image is almost always the light-skinned or brown-skinned, curly haired look, the type that shows some recent mixing even though the skin may be brown. While Trinidad does have many races, and has had its share of race mixing, the deliberate image put across is that Trinidad is made up of this brown skin curly hair lighter-skinned population as a means of showing some cosmetic idea of racial harmony, and a more shaded idea of beauty to mask the white direction of their projection. Of course, ‘racial harmony’ and ‘national unity’ often mean that the experiences and images of the exploited must be hushed up to make way for a ‘hunki dori’ image that sells. However the reality is just the opposite. When you look at a cross section of the population, what you see is mainly dark-skinned African people and dark-skinned Indian people. The type of people that is reflected in the media as ‘black people’ is quite small by comparison.


It is the same here. Light skinned people are favored by the racist white superiority structured corporate owned media globally. It was also like that when I went to Africa. It is disturbing enough to pick up a magazine or watch a video and see only/majority light skinned/mixed race people being shown. But when I saw it on billboards and tv in Africa(even though i expected it becauseof colonialism and American cultural imperialism) I was floored. But that is the global effects of capitalism, imperialism, and colinization. That is why this SYSTEM must go. The actual light skinned people being picked by the corporations do not have control over their use as the preffered appearance. Of course they could always choose to decline modelling/acting and the like...but that is not likely. The only way to stop this unfair representation of the masses of African people is by attacking the system that promotes it.  Otherwise we could notice it ,and complain about it ,and point it ou,t and be disgusted by it all day....but it will just continue.
   
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This illustrates part of a deeper problem that Kelani highlighted- the appropriation of blackness (in the specific case I cited, Trinidadianness) to fit an acceptable light-skinned media image.  It is an alarming spiral. To be media accepted is to be mixed, to be Trinidadian is to be mixed, and in effect, to be black (accepted black) is to be … mixed. The real black people are invisible; the black image is appropriated by the mixed image. Her words tie right into this scenario. Mixed people along with whites who have more privileges in the system over blacks can define and “refine” blackness in their own images.


What mixed/light skinned blacks actually own the companies and media to control this image? I think that most mixed/light skined Blacks are puppets of the elites who push white dominance...as you have pointed out. Devide and conquor...many mixed/light skiined Blacks fall for this tactic and set themselves up in communities historically as a middle or advantaged class and take what economic gain they can get. I haven't heard the people posting on this site coming from that direction though...Even most of the white folks on this site talk about te white superiority system under capitalism being unfair...  
   
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This is not to say that people of mixed ancestry cannot define themselves as they wish, and have a full right to claim both sides of their ancestry. Many do see themselves as ‘black’, although often they would like nothing better than to distance themselves from the dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans whom they try so hard to erase - the type of dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans that Kelani and Ayinde speak about, the ones that mostly came on slave ships, and the ones who got lynched.


You seem to not have noticed, or at the least you do not acknowledge, that I also mentioned the masses of African people are dark skinned and kinky haired and that is the image that should be promoted....Not just because that is the masses of African people globally, but because that is the image and they are the people that are the most oppressed and underrepresented under this system.  
 
Quote
Because the system values the voices of the lighter ones more than those of the dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans, they get to be the ones that are the standard, the definers, and negate the voices, experiences and images of the blacker ones.

More often that not, light-skinned ones can be viewed as part of the group that suppresses dark-skinned kinky-hair Black voices, by their presence in certain quarters. The fact that light-skinned ones do not get these points also demonstrates the earlier points made about sensitivity.


Why are you insisting I do not understand this?...When my posts obviousely show evidence to the contrary. I must assume you are directing this towards one if not both of us , Gman or I...because we are the only 2 light skinned/mixed race people who posted on this thread that identified as such...I personally WANT this false image to stop. So does Gman from what I have read. I don't want to be the face of what Africans are depicted as...That image is illogical and just plain false. When I open a magazine and watch TV or look at advertisements all around me, contrary to popular belief, it disgusts me to see the image of light skinned and curley haired people everywhere as though that is what the majority of African/Black people look like, or more important, what s promoted that we should look like. That is a distructive and racist image force fed to us by a white superitority capitalist system and unfortunately propogated and accepted by fellow Blacks and usually the light skinned ones who are benefitting and promoted by such images.(I know I am in the minority with people that look like me on this topic...but that does not mean that I don't hold it as an opinion or am unaware of it) I don't understand why you Yan or Kelani would think that it isn't understood. IMHO only a complete idiot or a blindman wouldn't notice this. So I find it insulting that I am being told, even though I have demonstrated to the contrary by the majority of my posts, that I do get it. Please explain why this is being insisted upon? 
 
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As a dark-skinned kinky haired African myself I think I am paying respect to the other dark-skinned Blacks in the photos. Patriot Warrior posted pictures of beautiful black people and all many here have been showcasing is the defensives of mixed-race ones trying to show how they fit in. Maybe some have forgotten the dark-skinned Black children in the photos.


Fist off, I noticed that the mixed child looked EXACTLY like me as a child...I If you saw a child that looked exactly like you in someone elses photos, would you not mention this as a fact? It shocked me as I stated in my post...It was creepy...that is the ONLY reason I commented on the physical appearance of anyone in the photos.

Secondly, if you have beef that the topic of discussion in this thread diverted to "mixed race" issues...Then you should be irritated that Kelani asked for our opinions. If someone I personally know asks my opinion on such a subject I am going to answer. There are beautiful people in all of those pictures...Nobody forgot that. The subject strayed because of the questions being asked. If you look through the posts of any other thread I have posted on...You will see that I have NEVER given more attention to any subject because of a light skinned or mixed race biggotry...In fact...most of my concern is of politics, religion, and the African masses(Which are Black and Kinky haired). I don't even remeber a thread coming up where I had to mention that I was of partial European ancestry...because it is not, and should not be anyones focus. In fact I remember quite frequently chastising others in posts for not keeping our eyes on the "Aim"...Africa. As a Pan-Africanist I couldn't do anything but this.

Quote
Even trying to assess Kelani's color by just one photo on the site is to miss the fact that she does have an album on the site, and the pictures show more of her dark-skinned tone and not the flash light altered one in the photo to which you are referring. But I don’t think it is necessary to try to measure color with her to see the truth in the argument that was presented.


The problem I have with Kelani's post is that Kelani is preeching to the choir. Otherwise I agree with the observations made. I personally know her, and am friends with her.  She knows I don't subscribe to or support, and am actually very vocally against the light skinned image being portrayed in the coporate run media...But that is the part of argument I have...It is corporate run and owned...In other words the White Elite control the images shoved down our throat...if they don't approve of it...and in many cases come up with it in the first place...to serve their own diabolical purposes...so they can exploit people easier...We wouldn't see it. Very few black companies control the images being portrayed....and most that are feel they have to promote the same values as the capitalist system...in other words, they think they have to reinforce the capitalist color caste system. Some images have improved showing darker skinned kinky haired women and men(thank God)...but most haven't, and aren't gong to unless African people...the masses...rise up agaist the system as a unified and ideologically trained force. The SYSTEM is to blame...and it is controlled by the few...the elites. If I am a vocal communitee activist and constantly complain about the images forced on us all, what else can I do? I don't have some special audience with the white corporate elite where they listen to me anymore that any other person of colour because I am "half-white" or light skinned!  I'm just as powerless as anyone else outside of my personal actions and organizational political activites. I speak to other light skinned/mixed race people and anyone else who promotes the Euro-centric standard of beauty and tell them this is wrong. I also don't "shine a light" on myself as the voice of African people because I know I don't look like the masses of the Black/African opressed...Nor should the masses aspire to look like the Eurocentric image forced on us all...But what else can anyone do to try to stop the propogation of this image, and all the other psychological and physical warfare launched by this system on African people, but try to organize against this system that does this to us all?  
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Forward to a united Africa!
Yann
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« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2004, 11:12:09 PM »

Obviously it is an issue some of us think is important, just like the many issues we address.    
   
There is no reason for this defensiveness, especially if you claim to be different. You have taken points that were made in a general manner and responded as if they were directed at you.  
   
You said:  
 
“The problem I have with Kelani's post is that Kelani is preaching to the choir. Otherwise I agree with the observations made.”    
   
Why have a problem if you agree? Why not let it go so that others who may not be aware of the issues can look at it?  
 
You did say:  
 
“The behavior of the majority of people that have my phenotypical appearance has been historically appalling and needs such criticism.”
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gman
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« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2004, 12:24:21 PM »

How can I express 'excess pride' in being African? Am I supposed to be only so proud to be African, and no more?
OK if you got a problem with me defining myself as 'Black' since I am not Black-skinned, fine then, I will define myself as 'brown' or what have you, a brown african descent nigga 'B.A.D.N.', it sounds better than 'Cablinasian'.
Yan that is an interesting point you made about the ads and ting though, I see what you mean there, or look at hip hop videos, is pure light-skin women in there, but like Oshun Auset pointed out, it's not like the ad companies or MTV are controlled by lighter-skinned black/brown people (at least not in Amerikkka, t&t maybe), they controlled by white people.
I am not the one that particularly 'emphasized' my African heritage, white folks emphasized my African heritage by calling me a nigger, stopping and searching me on the street, etc. etc. So what, I'm supposed to live in denial of that and gwaan like I'm not a light-skinned black man, I'm some other category, a mix who owes allegiance equally to black and to welsh or something, I ain't feeling that, when I see a Black person of any shade anywhere I deh round the world, I seeing that person as my brother or sister til they prove otherwise, and more times I am treated as a brother by black people, you think I could go round anywhere in the world and hail up everyone of welsh descent and gwaan like dem all me bruddaz and sistaz, come on now.
We all in the 'Black' category, to me, because we share certain experiences, now we don't all share the same experiences, true that my experience as a lighter-skinned black man will be a bit different and GENERALLY SPEAKING less harsh than if I was Black-skinned, just as people's experiences will be different based on their gender, culture, sexuality, ability/disabillity, mental illness or so-called 'sanity', or what have you. But in my opinion we got enough of the same similar experiences for us all to be contained under the label 'Black', we have some things in common, primarily, crackers want to keep us down and use us. Part of this using us, will involve using us against one another, which is often based on skin shade, no doubt, I know that, I grew up in the caribbean, I lived in amerikkka, people are obsessed with the blasted shade of people skin and yeah people are brainwashed to believe that lighter is better. But I can't help that and I refuse to bite my tongue, sit back in the sidelines, not voice an opinion, or whatever, for fear that I might take away from some darker-skinned person expressing that opinion. Fuhchrissake if we got the same opinion, let's just express the same opinion, without worrying about who is making who look bad or look less militant or something, my opinion is like me baiz dead prez paraphrase Peter Tosh "I'M AN AFRICAN, AND I KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING" and like Anthony B says "FIYA BURN WHITE SUPREMACY, QUEEN A INGLAN POPE A ROME AND NAZI GERMANY", those are my opinions, more than opinions really to me, why can't I and a black black-skinned person both shout out these things, these things are true regardless of what degree of melanin deh in me skin.
Maybe I ain't been very coherent or cogent or addressed all the points here, if I missing somebody's point forgive me, I don't really sit down to write analytical essays when I type on here, I just express what is on my mind at any given time, well, I await feedback, respects to all.
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Yann
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« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2004, 02:52:00 PM »

It is always important to be very clear on where you stand in the system as it is and to be continually aware of how you are seen, what privileges you may have and how your actions may affect others that do not have those privileges. There is much humility there too, in being able to stand back and check your self.  
 
It is one thing to think that you have all the information, to think that you are right in your points and that you do not have these issues, but it is not always about that.  It is also about how you, with all these possible privileges, may be seen by the same ones whose cause you are so trying to fight; how to them you may be just as bad as the ‘enemy’ that we all acknowledge, how to them, just by virtue of being alive, you manifest everything that they have been denied and are given all the benefits that they will never see. And I am not just talking about materially as in financially etc but in terms of how you are seen, and how you look. You reflect the image that denies them visibility.  
 
Gman says,  
“I can't help that and I refuse to bite my tongue, sit back in the sidelines, not voice an opinion, or whatever, for fear that I might take away from some darker-skinned person expressing that opinion.”  
 
And  
 
“Why can't I and a black black-skinned person both shout out these things, these things are true regardless of what degree of melanin deh in me skin.”  
 
But you see that this is the issue. It should be exactly the opposite. When you stand ‘higher’ in this system you HAVE to be constantly aware of if you may be taking from a blacker one who is more deserving, if you are distracting from them making their views known, and to have enough integrity and humility to realize that even if you may feel you have it or may be articulate about certain issues, that the depth of that persons experience is often bigger than the words you may have. You should always be aware of how and when and where there may be a blacker one right there who is made invisible in the system by your light skinned presence.  And that is not a matter of pity or anything nasty like that. It is simply respect. What you do about it is your call.
 
To me, Privilege + Being a little better informed = Constant Vigilance  
People should be constantly aware of how they benefit, and how they may be contributing to the corrupt system they benefit from.  
 
This is not just a big nameless, faceless system. It is people with these poor attitudes that create and contribute to it. People are just as much creators of the system as the system creates the people. We should all accept personal responsibility while challenging the system. To say, well we don’t own the businesses, we don’t own the corporations etc is a cop out, because it is peoples’ attitudes that shape and contribute to so many of these things. White people especially females can make similar arguments, but that does not stop us from pointing out how they benefit from the system, and to a large degree support it.  
 
You said, “OK if you got a problem with me defining myself as 'Black'”  

I certainly have no problem with anyone calling themselves anything they wish. I am explaining one thing and it is being interpreted differently. I am certainly not telling anyone what to do; I am simply analyzing the situation.

You said : “We all in the 'Black' category, to me, because we share certain experiences, now we don't all share the same experiences, true that my experience as a lighter-skinned black man will be a bit different and GENERALLY SPEAKING less harsh than if I was Black-skinned, just as people's experiences will be different based on their gender, culture, sexuality, ability/disabillity, mental illness or so-called 'sanity', or what have you.”

Being lighter-skinned or darker-skinned cannot simply be placed in a separate category like you did there, as there are light-skinned and darker-skinned people in all those categories, and how they are treated based on conditioned assumptions is the issue.  
 
At the end of the day all change must come from people, from within themselves. That is why we always begin with examining attitudes and doing the necessary work to refine characters and not go blowing up multi million dollar corporations. That is in itself why so many revolutions fail. People hardly ever stop to look at themselves while correctly blaming “the system”. It is comfortable I suppose to blame others, and to blame nameless faceless entities; much more so than the hell of realizing that the essence of the system stares right back at you from the mirror.
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Oshun_Auset
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« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2004, 02:58:25 PM »

Yan,

My "defensiveness" came about from these comments being made in direct response to my posts. Some things on here from you, and moreso Kelani were general statements...others were specifically directed to gman and/or I.  That is why I responded "personally"...because I feel I was being "personally" adressed. This was explained and adressed in my posts when it was applicable.

As far as this most recent posting...I agree completely.
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gman
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« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2004, 03:08:45 PM »

Yan,
Respect for that eloquent response, I must admit I was somewhat expecting to be dissed or ignored based on our previous interactions. You just clarified a lot of the issues brought up in this thread and gave me some good food for thought, thanks. I see what you're saying; it's something like how when there's a discussion with an equal amount of men and women in the room, the men would tend to 'hog the mic' and be interrupting/silencing the sisters, often without really realizing it, and sometimes we might need to just shut up for a minute and let the sisters have their say, I could see how the same thing would apply. Sometimes I might need to shut up and let other people speak. But not all the time though, I'm definitely gonna have my say and I won't second guess myself or be intimidated from speaking my mind by anyone whether white black brown pink red or green (although if I saw a green person I might be too shocked to speak my mind), but I see now that that's not what you're saying, anyway I'd still like Bantu Kelani to clarify exactly what she meant by some things, but I think I get what you're saying now and I agree. Peace.
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preach
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« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2004, 06:03:28 PM »

Acceptance. Everyone wants to be accepted, and no one wants to be ostracized. So in the pursuit of acceptance we deny parts or our whole self - like persons of mixed races who deny one of their parents - and sometimes we agree with ideologies that go against our very nature. It is difficult to stand alone but necessary. I know some of the darkest Afrikans who have the whitest mindset. I also know some light complected Afrikans who are the epitome of down. But in the pursuit of acceptance they deny their essence. The beautiful thing about being either light or dark complected or of mixed parentage is that no matter how small ,Afrikan blood is in dem veins.  
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Bantu_Kelani
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« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2004, 07:36:00 AM »

It's refreshing to read well thought out argument from an informed Black woman. Kuddos to Yan!!

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I am all for acknowledging those privileges I do have as a lighter-skinned/mixed person, and for supporting the struggle of the most downpressed among us who do tend to be the darker-skinned among us, no argument there. But with that post, it seems like you painting people like me into a corner, we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't!Black people came in many shades and many different features even before the white man dem arrived, the KhoiSan look different than the Bantu who look different from the Mbuti who look different from the Masai, why can't we all acknowledge ourselves as Black, or as African if you prefer, you mean to say, because I describe myself as Black, it is somehow taking away from you describing yourself as Black? Is you describing yourself as Black then taking away from a Black Black Black skinned Nubian describing him/herself as Black? I ain't trying to get your goat here, but I really don't get what you trying to say in that post. Would you prefer if Halle Berry claimed herself as white or refused to acknowledge herself as Black and only claimed 'multiracial' like Tiger Woods?  

The batwas, the mbutis and other light skinned native peoples of Africa have broad noses, thick lips and kinky hair. Whereas the yellow or brown in color mixed raced Blacks have thin nose, wavy or curly hair, chestnut or even green eyes. The latter are not "negroid". So, why should we make the mistake to see them as something they are not? Like you say, perhaps, like Tiger Wood, the multiracial Blacks should feel proud who they really are, that is Black/multiracial of African and European, Semite, Indian or Asian origin. Perhaps then they will accept themselves with no background/heritage trickery.  

Quote
I am not the one that particularly 'emphasized' my African heritage, white folks emphasized my African heritage by calling me a nigger, stopping and searching me on the street, etc. etc. So what, I'm supposed to live in denial of that and gwaan like I'm not a light-skinned Black man, I'm some other category, a mix who owes allegiance equally to Black and to welsh or something, I ain't feeling that..

We all in the 'Black' category, to me, because we share certain experiences, now we don't all share the same experiences, true that my experience as a lighter-skinned Black man will be a bit different and GENERALLY SPEAKING less harsh than if I was Black-skinned, just as people's experiences will be different based on their gender, culture, sexuality, ability/disabillity, mental illness or so-called 'sanity', or what have you. But in my opinion we got enough of the same similar experiences for us all to be contained under the label 'Black', we have some things in common, primarily, crackers want to keep us down and use us. Part of this using us, will involve using us against one another, which is often based on skin shade, no doubt, I know that, I grew up in the caribbean, I lived in amerikkka, people are obsessed with the blasted shade of people skin and yeah people are brainwashed to believe that lighter is better. But I can't help that and I refuse to bite my tongue, sit back in the sidelines, not voice an opinion, or whatever, for fear that I might take away from some darker-skinned person expressing that opinion. Fuhchrissake if we got the same opinion, let's just express the same opinion, without worrying about who is making who look bad or look less militant or something, my opinion is like me baiz dead prez paraphrase Peter Tosh "I'M AN AFRICAN, AND I KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING" and like Anthony B says "FIYA BURN WHITE SUPREMACY, QUEEN A INGLAN POPE A ROME AND NAZI GERMANY", those are my opinions, more than opinions really to me, why can't I and a Black Black-skinned person both shout out these things, these things are true regardless of what degree of melanin deh in me skin.

Gman, it is somehow charming to see mixed race Black men and women come up with a pile of excuses, but eventually you have to stop juvenile thought process whereby fantasy and personal ideology are desired over reality. It's important for you to ask why you are always in denial. As you know you are not victim of the most extremist prejudice. The only ones in the world that experience the most outrages and killings are the dark-skinned-pure Black-kinky-haired-Africans all over the world. Since slavery time the masters would put the mixed-light-skin-Blacks in the house with them which we called "house slaves" and the dark-skinned-pure-Black-kinky-haired-slaves would stay out in the fields because whites felt "more comfortable" around light skin Blacks than dark skin Blacks as they felt that the lighter you are the better. And when the mixed-light-skin-slaves were house slaves they adapted some of their characteristics in their lifestyle of living that's how the light-skinned-Black upper class came to have their characteristics.

You claim to be light skin in color like brother Malcolm, so remember there was a period when you would pass the paper bag test. That paper bag could allow you to be a part of the upper class Black elite  this includes especially the Black fraternities and sororities. And, you know some of this belief still exists today. Thus, while many young mixed raced Blacks like you today know injustice in housing, employment, political, justice and civil affairs in western countries you certainly will not be in the receiving of violence in Sudan, Mauritania, Latin America and South and Eastern Asia even in places like the Dominican Republic.. This issue is subject of deep traumatism for me. That's why I will continue to give forcing attention to kinky-haired-pure Black/Africans who look like me.

I understood even before writing these posts that many Pro-Black Black/biracial people may come up here outraged. But I guess that shows that these Pro-Black or "conscious" half Black biracial don't want anything to do with boosting dark-skinned-pure Black-kinky-haired-Africans self-esteem or positions..

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The actual light skinned people being picked by the corporations do not have control over their use as the preffered appearance. Of course they could always choose to decline modelling/acting and the like...but that is not likely. The only way to stop this unfair representation of the masses of African people is by attacking the system that promotes it.  Otherwise we could notice it ,and complain about it ,and point it ou,t and be disgusted by it all day....but it will just continue.
   
I think your premise is overly simple, and for the most part ignores some real issues.. You view structural oppressions as the construct of imperialism and colonialism against our people. You have to mindful however that bigotry, racism and hatred against Black people aren't just in social, political and economic structures and institutions but are also the sum of individual attitudes. In a place like Western countries, it's not only the establishement that are overtly racist but necessary the individuals (some white family members of multiracial Blacks clearly are). So, at this stage of the game, even if every mixed raced Black were an agent of the political program for Black liberation, it would not make a lot of difference if they don't push this program in their own white houses and family units. Actual micro-actions to dismantle the structures that support inequality against Blacks is necessary, not just macro-actions.

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Secondly, if you have beef that the topic of discussion in this thread diverted to "mixed race" issues...Then you should be irritated that Kelani asked for our opinions. If someone I personally know asks my opinion on such a subject I am going to answer. There are beautiful people in all of those pictures...Nobody forgot that. The subject strayed because of the questions being asked.

I'm asking a question while seeing posted pictures of a light-skinned mixed Black child among others dark-skinned-pure lack-kinky-haired-Africans ones in Africa. I asked the question to his Black father and he answered, (I greatly appreciate your answers Patriot Warrior!) then we expend on his answers. I'm highly skeptical of multiracial Blacks in general for good reasons, which why I asked the question. So, tell me how I am off topic here? I'm going to continue to ask those types of questions to parents of multiracial Blacks until I understand this issue.. And expect that each time I'm going to see mixed Blacks on here, any children and their parents I am going to ask them to give some input.


B.K
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We should first show solidarity with each other. We are Africans. We are black. Our first priority is ourselves.
Noel_Moukala
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« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2004, 09:00:32 AM »

For us, to be african is not determinated by our skin colour. Many criminals in africans countries are black. Many dictators who boil our land are black also Shocked.
This debate must be sociological, and not political. To make this debate between black and white, a political debate, is a trap to idiot.
Here were one truth African family with albino children!
Comments?


NKOSSI
African Renaissance
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Bantu_Kelani
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« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2004, 10:22:34 AM »

Quote
For us, to be african is not determinated by our skin colour. Many criminals in africans countries are black. Many dictators who boil our land are black also Shocked.
This debate must be sociological, and not political. To make this debate between black and white, a political debate, is a trap to idiot.
Here were one truth African family with albino children!
Comments?
NKOSSI
African Renaissance

Please, do not get lost in the semantics of your demagogue rhetoric Mr. Noel Moukala. Black albinos are not "multiracial" mixed Blacks with European genetic background. They are a "pure" Black race. They just don't have any melanin or any pigment in their skin. WHY ARE YOU IGNORING THE WHOLE ARGUMENT AYINDE, YAN AND I PUT IN PLACE? The kinky-hair-dark-skinned-Black-Africans around the world are reminded every singled day of their inferiority by the white exploitative and oppressive systems, together with by light skinned Blacks who have white in their blood, they who predominately in Black or "colored" nations have been having tactics and philosophies of the hundreds years of oppression, lynching, the worst kind of slavery man has known and injustice against the kinky-hair-dark-skinned-Black-Africans. So, of course you make no point in your post. Check out the mixed-raced Sudanese (Arab wannabees) believe that they are better than the dark-skinned Black Sudanese in that they are Arabs, that they have their lineage dating back to Arabia! The kinky-hair-dark-skinned-Black-Africans in Mauritania, and Sudan are being made slaves to this day! How do you explain that? Let's face it you have no justifications Dozey..

B.K

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gman
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« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2004, 01:15:51 PM »

BK: I know quite a few mixed-race Black people who are not yellowish/brownish, do not have wavy hair or green eyes or thin lips, and are in fact completely indistinguishable from other Black people. I talking black black-skinned, kinky-haired, thick-lipped big-nosed people one of whose parents is as pink as a piglet. I also know people all of whose parents and grandparents are Black, who grew up entirely among Black people, who are yellowish/brownish and/or wavy-haired/thin-lipped etc., due to some white genes in there down the line, most likely from a rapist. My ex-fiancee is as black as black can be, her grandfather was a creole guy from New Orleans who looked white, is she 'mixed race'? If I had married her and had youths with her, who would almost certainly be more her color than mine, would they be 'mixed race'? What is the definition of this mixed race, where do you draw the line?
What about African-descent people who are mixed with something other than white? Guyana has a lot of dougla people, Black/East Indian, most Blacks and Indians in Guyana are dark-skinned, so most dougla people are dark-skinned or black-skinned, some may have more wavy hair/Indian features, some may have more kinky hair/thick lips/African features. In my experience the majority, especially those who look more Black, identify more as Black, mainly because they tend to get more prejudice from the Indian side of their families (especially if they're Hindu) than from the African side. Where do they fall into this equation? Mauritian people are like a whole 'race' of 'douglas', where do they fall, are they Black? Walter Rodney's concept of Black Power encompassed Indians as well (a lot of whom in Guyana are literally black, if you're talking skin color), would you agree with him?
What about Amhara, Tigray, Eritrean, Somali people who may be as black-skinned as black-skinned can be but have more wavy hair, thinner noses or whatever, are they excluded from the category of Black? Here in the UK Somalians are probably the most discriminated-against of African-descent people here, not only by white people but other Black people as well, the fact that some of them have wavy hair and thin lips does not seem to have made them any closer to the hearts of white british people.
As far as 'excuses', I wasn't aware I'd made any, just trying to outline my own experience from my own perspective, if it sounds like 'excuses' to someone that's all well and good, but for me it's just simply my experience.
I look forward to continuing the dialogue whenever you get the chance.
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Oshun_Auset
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« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2004, 02:31:57 PM »

Quote

I'm asking a question while seeing posted pictures of a light-skinned mixed Black child among others dark-skinned-pure lack-kinky-haired-Africans ones in Africa. I asked the question to his Black father and he answered, (I greatly appreciate your answers Patriot Warrior!) then we expend on his answers. I'm highly skeptical of multiracial Blacks in general for good reasons, which why I asked the question. So, tell me how I am off topic here? I'm going to continue to ask those types of questions to parents of multiracial Blacks until I understand this issue.. And expect that each time I'm going to see mixed Blacks on here, any children and their parents I am going to ask them to give some input.
B.K



I said that because Yan was insinuating that "people"(the mixed/light skinned people) on the thread were only paying attention to the "light skinned child"...because the child was light/mixed...I was explaining that the reason the conversation took that direction is because you Kelani, directly asked people of mixed African descent to respond to your thoughts....I was explaining that the attention given to that one picture and topic on my part had nothing to do with the fact that she was light...but that she just so happened to look just like I did as a child... and that you had asked the questions that led to the direction the thread took....The reason I pointed this out is because Yan was insinuating in his posts that the mixed people started this topic of conversation, when actually you were the initiator of the topic. I don't have a problem with you asking such questions...I'm glad you did and do...You are misinterpretting my comment as an attack on you and your line of questioning...when it is not. It was my attempt to try and point out a contradiction in Yan's post...Yan was criticising the direction this thread took. If Yan was irritated about the light/skinned mixed folks topic of convo...It would have only been logical to criticise the person that asked the question...not just the people who responded...Wouldn't you agree that it is illogical to comment/critisize the direction or attention to the topic of light-skinned/mixed people, and insinuate in the post that the mixed people are highlighting a particlar picture because of colour consciousness...When we were directly asked to respond in such way?

Here is what Yan said...
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As a dark-skinned kinky haired African myself I think I am paying respect to the other dark-skinned Blacks in the photos. Patriot Warrior posted pictures of beautiful black people and all many here have been showcasing is the defensives of mixed-race ones trying to show how they fit in. Maybe some have forgotten the dark-skinned Black children in the photos.


Now why would Yan say this KNOWING you directly asked mixed race Blacks to respond to your questions and give their opinions? It would be rude and illogical for people fitting that description not to respond...Especially in my case, considering the person who is asking it(you) is someone I know personally and consider as a friend. It would have been wrong of me, in my eyes, not to respond at length when you could clearly see I have read and posted on this particular thread previousely...In fact, I would have thought you were expecting a long respose from me...the same responses Yan is complaining about... I doubt Yan was reffering to you when speaking of "many here" and "some"... So I ask again....Why would Yan criticise the people responding and not the person asking the question? That is illogical and I had to point it out. I hope you now understand my intentions in pointing out to Yan that you posed the questions...I'm not irritated with the direction of the thread(well I wasn't irritated at your questions but the current direction of the thread is all over the place)..Yan was showing irritation at the subject...So Yan should have been equally complaining about the person who posed the question or that the questions were posed at all.....or, to be consistant, Yan shouldn't have complained about the direction of the thread and made insinuations at all. And it was obvious that insinuations were being made. After reading this Yan may also understand the background goings on between the person asking the question and my long posts...There is a corralation...My posts weren't just long because of the subject matter...but also mainly because of who was asked the questions...someone I consider a friend who I would want to thoroughly understand my possition on such matters...

In other words I was "attacking"(for lack of a better term) Yan...not the fact that you asked anything of anybody. The questions you asked needed to be asked...Look at the length of this thread. We have some inter-familial stuff to sort out amongst all people of African descent.

Kelani said...
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Gman, it is somehow charming to see mixed race Black men and women come up with a pile of excuses, but eventually you have to stop juvenile thought process whereby fantasy and personal ideology are desired over reality.


Since I am the only mixed race women on this thread(or the only one who as identified themselves as such)...Was this directed towards me also?  Please clarify this for me...

As far as your general mistrust of mixed/light skinned people. I can't blame you. It is only logical considering the history. I personally NEVER blame darker Blacks for not trusting the motives of lighter Blacks. I see light Blacks every day that have a superiority complex and all the other emotional and mental falicies their privileged status in the colour caste system gives them...especially here, in the Southern U.S.  I'm used to being questioned and treated with suspicion by darker Blacks(especially because of my political beliefs)...It doesn't bother me(in person) whatsoever because it is a logical defense mechanism that I would employ if the shoe was on the other foot.

This is a personal response to the general thread...
The reason I have been defensive on this thread is because I thought the history of my posts and comments on this site should have given the impression that I didn't have that mentality.(I actually think they did) It was saddenning to me to see that posters here...Although they know, or at least I have exposed to them over the last year, the inner working of my mind,...compared to the average person who just sees me for the first time...thought I could possibly have harbored such colour prejudice/ or superiority towards the masses of our brothers and sisters in the struggle. I know this is showing I did take some of the posting personally...Of which I did...But some of the insinuations made about peoples comments on here(in particular mine) were personal...and were not just speaking in the general sense to the general reading audience. This disturbed me. I have posted on similar subject matter on this site(about light skinned/dark skinned issues) prior to posting my photo, or disclosing the fact that I am light/mixed race and I never recieved these types of insinuations or responses from anyone. That may be because assumptions were made about my appearance based on the ideology in my posts...(I am also often mistaken for being a man because of my posting style, so that would not be a surprise)...Anyhow, I just find that odd to say the least.

Although many people still fall for his trickery...Willie Lynch is dead. I want to burry him and his legacy through organization, activism, and my personal actions.

Diallogues like this one assist in our forward movement.
We will get past these hurdles one day, it is just a matter of when.  I will personally put in every effort to do so.  

Forward ever, backward never!
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Ayinde
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« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2004, 04:25:12 PM »

I left this thread primarily because of your overly defensive responses, not that I thought you clarified anything. Simply claiming to be the exception to the general conduct of light-skinned people is no proof of being different, and the responses really clarify nothing. It certainly is not my intention to get anyone feeling so distraught about this topic that they leave the board for what I genuinely believe they do not understand.  
 
I would venture to say that even this recent attempt to explain how the focus on the thread shifted, is being drawn from one line in Yan’s post, that was posted directly below two of gman’s posts.    
 
Yan said: “Patriot Warrior posted pictures of beautiful black people and all many here have been showcasing is the defensives of mixed-race ones trying to show how they fit in. Maybe some have forgotten the dark-skinned Black children in the photos.”    
 
It is a fact this was done.    
 
Patriot Warrior was sharing from HIS trip to Africa, and you directed our attention to the light-skinned child in the photo, then to you personally. For some of us, this is typical light-skinned conduct. You may have very genuinely felt that your moves were all innocent about seeing a child that reminded you of how you were when you were a child. But to some of us that is the usual conduct of light-skinned ones. It is like an automatic impulse to take the spotlight. Even if you felt the child looked like you when you were young, I failed to see how you made that point by posting an adult picture of you. The only thing that was obviously similar between the child’s photo and your adult one is the fact that you were both light-skinned. If you had posted a picture of you around the same age of the child, we all would have been better able to see what was so similar beyond the obvious skin color.  
 
I am sure Patriot Warrior had much more to share, and may have done so if more attention was paid to getting his views about the trip. I was keenly looking forward to some more of his impressions of conditions in Africa. This could probably be done another time on another thread, as this Colorism issue is also important.
   
There are other things I observed, which I would hold for another time.  
 
I hope my observations are not cause for more concern than is necessary, I do feel you make good inputs on this forum. But I am of the view that you are overly defensive about this issue of Colorism, and that in itself shows you do have things to work on.
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Oshun_Auset
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Posts: 605


« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2004, 05:21:33 PM »

Ayinda,

They aren't cause for over concern but are worthy of a response...

I posted the current picture of me because I don't have any other pictures downloaded. A friend of mine downloaded that pic, I don't even have possession of it. She e-mailed it to me because I don't have a scanner. At the point I posted the picture it was in direct response to seeing his daughter. It is her whole face. I don't think every light skinned child with curley hair looks like me. That would be rediculous. You may not see my motivations as innocent...even though all my past behavior on this site would contradict such a conclusion, but so be it. I can actually understand why to a certain extent. Like I said to Kelani...I would interpret the actions of light/skinned mixed-race people with suspicion if the shoe were on the other foot because of the history. I thought Patriot Warrior might want to see what his daughter may look like later on...I see I shouldn't be so free with my personal commentary on this board so it won't be misconstrued...I will keep most discussion ideological from now on, like I have done in the past. In fact, I wrestled over posting my picture because I was apprehensive about the reaction I would get after people knew what I looked like. I tossed that apprehension out of my mind because I thought to myself, "These people on this site know what I think for over a year, they won't react the way people do when they see me for the first time with no background on how I think on certain subjects"  I didn't want to appear that I was trying to put the spotlight on myself. In fact I was worried I would get the exact reaction I did, and people would respond to my posts with different assumptions because of my phenotypical appearance and the historical attitude of people that look like me...I guess I should have listened to that inner voice...

I have never been "defensive" about this topic before, and it has come up in the past, and I have commented on it. So I fail to see a pattern of me being defensive. This is the first time...but I see that is not being taken into consideration. I'm defensive because I care what people that I have respect for think about me. The people on this forum...and I feel my motivations were being misinterpreted, wchich they are. I would have thought that the entire year of posting on this forum would have been some evidence that I was an exception to the rule but I see it is not.(at least in your eyes you have came to your conclusions of off the postings on this one thread) You would just have to know me I guess. Nothing I state at this point will change you, or anyone elses opinion, so I will let it rest. Kelani knows me personally and knows I don't harbour such attitudes...Which was also cause for some concern on my part because of the nature of some of her responses to my posts. I know myself, and the people around me know me, and my works. That will be enough for me.

I wouldn't leave the board because of one thread or people's personal opinons. I would have stopped posting a long time ago, especially on this thread, if that was going to be my reaction. I don't scare that easily...Plus, the site is just too good a source of information, conversation, and ideas. I just know the boundaries now.

I sincerely hope the conversation directs back towards Patriot Warriors trip...and Africa in general, that should be all of our primary focus.
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