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25515 Posts in 9752 Topics by 980 Members Latest Member: - Roots Dawta Most online today: 56 (July 03, 2005, 11:25:30 PM)
+  Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum
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EmpresKeneilwe
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« on: April 03, 2009, 07:48:04 AM »

Greetings,
I was not sure where to post this, so I guess this area will do for me. Smiley

I recently came across an article that has made reference to “jesus’s” race. It was actually the second time I read it. But with time, my consciousness has expanded more than the first time I read it, therefore I had a more in-depth overstanding of what the author was trying to portray. I’m sure most of you are familiar with it; the symbolism of Christ and the cross. Eventually, I ended up “googling black jesus”. That also brought up a lot researchers’ claims on the race of jesus and the origins of religion, Christianity in particular.

As we may all be aware that Roman and Greek claim(ed) civilization at Africa’s expense. Although it is of vital importance that we know these historical facts, we also need to guard against being too “caught up” in these discoveries/realisations. As much as I believe and overstand that religion was created for political reasons, I also feel that it is some what misleading to actually still hold on to the fact that there was/is a saviour who died for sins on the cross, even if he was black. I have read “Book of the Dead/coming forth by day”, and if I overstand it correctly, the author states “DECLARE your INNOCENCE” and not confess your sins. BUT I STAND CORRECTED. To me personally, it makes sense to declare one’s innocence, coz one is born without "sin". In the case of Christianity, one is baptised to “wash” sins away - WHY? What sin have you committed?

Christianity is different from Africanity or African Spirituality. It makes you feel guilty when one accepts “the self”. Africanity on the other hand, enhances the self, in effort of one embracing the self whole heartedly and spiritually. Thus the reason why one cannot claim Africanism and Christianity at the same time, they are in conflict. One cannot be spiritually uplifted with this ongoing inner conflict.

We are not a colour-blind society. That’s a given. But in the case of Christianity in particular, it doesn’t matter whether or not jesus was black. In essence, that would still keep us in mental bondage. For instance, one still would refer to “him” or not “her”. You’d still be waiting for that blessed day that “he” will descend from the sky (that’s fairy tale mentality) to save us (blacks, people of colour) from this evil white (Eurocentric) supremacy system. But we’d still have to deal with sexism (men are superior to women) bcoz they were created in “his” image. Blonde, blue-eyes and white (light-skinned). It would raise the question of what did he have in mind when “he” created a “wombman” or “other races”. If he’s a god that is “colour-blind” or gender-less, why is he white? Why aren’t we all the same colour and gender, like him?
We’d have to deal with race and classism. I can safely say the list is endless. The bible, when thoroughly overstood, brings forth more conflict than solutions.

I’ve also realised that people equate the bible, Quran or torah to something like a cell phone; always making reference to it. The bible says, the bible says. I’m sure we all know what the bible says. One can buy it at any given time. But what do you say? What does your spirit/soul say? One can never buy spirituality nor can one buy faith. Why does it have to a pillar of strength? I mean literally. As in a physical structure. That would mean that, without having the bible at arms length, they would fall or be left stranded. This to me makes the bible “material”. You can’t live without it - MENTAL BONDAGE. What ever happened to faith? Why is that people cannot use their own experiences or testimonials as references? Why can’t people write their own personal “books of life”? This just goes to show that as much some have claimed “consciousness”, a lot are still chained to the core.

With time (which we don’t have), we will be able to help each other to break these chains. I’m also a student of this university called “life”. With each new rising, I learn something new. Therefore I’m not saying this piece is the epitome of self-realisation or consciousness. It is certainly a stepping stone. One needs to know that we don’t have much time to be “soul searching”, instead we should be growing our souls. Soul awakening, for lack of better terminology. Without holding onto material. The bible and church included. And this goes for all other “mainstream” religions.

Yours in divinity
Hotep


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Motingwa I
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2009, 06:14:45 PM »

Greets Ms

I don´t know. It always bewilders me when I come across Rastafarians who speak or seem to speak against the Book  of Prophecy - the Bible. I am assuming that your are a Rastafarian. I always thought the Rastafari-ism was built on the Bible. Even Elders like Ras Marcus on Rastafari Speaks refers to the Bible as an important teacher for those who were in the movement in the early days.

It may be a new phenomenon this ´abandoning of the Bible´ perhaps because of all the new knowledge being uncovered about Kemet which wasn´t so easy to find before.  I myself cannot deny that I have gained a lot spiritually from Kemetic wisdom. Even what the I recently said that it is more effective to declare ones innocence than to admit guilt. What I can say is that a lot of people interpret the Bible differently; even those who translated it: one English version might say ¨Do not steal...Do not commit murder...Do not commit adultery.¨ giving orders, while another might say ¨Thou shall not steal...Thou shall not commit murder...Thou shall not commit adultery¨ making it sound more like a promise (tsholohetso).

I don´t wish to go on and on trying to point at other differing interpretations but I do wish to say something about things the I said. There is the question of wether or not it is feasible to depend on one Saviour who says there is no other way but He. And that it would be... sexist? Speaking from my own mind I would answer: ¨Just because the Bible speaks only of God and not so much about Goddess it doesnt mean she didn exist.¨ From the beginning God always uses the plural ´us´, eg. ´let Us make man in our own likeness.´

Just the other night I was pondering over an explaination of the Trinity of God that I came across in a book called Deliver Us from Evil. The author was presenting the Trinity as God the Father, God the Son and God the Hola One of creation. I am still unable to overstand it fully but she  spoke of how women experience the creational aspect of Father God through childbirth which I guess men can never experience. Sometimes this author refered to the holy one as John the Baptist and sometimes even as God the woman  ...or so I remember. Then the other night I came up with: ¨God the Father, God the MOTHER and God the Son being the three most important people! i.e. Not God the dawta because maybe it is very important for a dawta to have children than it is for the man (whose physical is always the same wether he has children or not and so takes much shorter to fully overstand himself and find salvation.¨

But thatś just a piece of my own mind/understanding.

Ras Paul     
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Motingwa I
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2009, 05:17:32 PM »

P.S. I think I must have gotten to carried away giving my own unbridled thoughts/whims on words of others especially when I said 'not God the dawta.' Please excuse any percieved chauvanism which I'd hate to be a purveyor of.

By the way Ms, I man am of the school of thought that a Messiah, Redeemer, Black Christ IS necessary. One reason I have heard for Him having to come to the world is to decipher the Book of Pophecy, the Bible for I & I. The Black Christ is the one in the Revelation who was found worthy to break the 7 seals of the book which is one of the most beautiful reading for I.

Sela My Queen.
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EmpresKeneilwe
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2009, 08:29:11 AM »

Breden,
I trust your living to your utmost ability.
Tis good you find comfort in those books. If it works for you, carry on, don't stop.

I appreciate the fact that you realise that what you have stated above is your overstanding of the bible/religion.

And no, I am not rastafarian. One does not have to refer to themselves as Empresses, Emperors or Queens or Kings, bcoz they follow Rastafari. As for my overstanding, this is a way of life, and not a set of instructions. Rastas do not have to lock their hair to prove they are part of the family (and by the way "1 Corinthians 11:14 * 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? "), they dont have to read/follow the bible to be rasta. Everyone eventually paves their own path, using whatever the learn from the movement. One does not have to rely on it.

The bible was written by the disciples of Jesus, meaning it was man-made. Just like any other (history) book one may come across. Therefore we can all write our own books, put them together and create our own BOOK OF LIFE. Jesus was a man (if he existed), just like any man on earth. As you state, "God always uses the plural ´us´, eg. ´let Us make man in our own likeness.´". 
Now from what I gathered from your statement, we were created by gods, and that there's not a God, and Psalm 82:6  states this - "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High. ". Meaning, we are all gods and goddesses. Not just a single hand-picked man, God's favourite child that is. The bible says, He created Heaven and hell, meaning some of his children will definetely go to hell. How did he know some of us will be "sinning"? Did He not have faith that we might not "sin"? To me, if He really does know what we are doing and thinking, then he must have created all the evil deeds within our psyche already, thus the reason he created hell, b4 putting some of us on earth. Why does the bible not say anything about his female couter-part, except the part where she's called Eve the "mother of all living"? I may be wrong here, I stand corrected.

Everyone has their own relationship with the Most High/Supreme being. It matters not if you follow the bible/quran or not. Or whether you go to church/mosque. Your God/Goddess has given a mind and consciousness to think for yourself. To distiguish between right and wrong. Your have  reasoning capacity, hence you responded to my post. Coz that's human nature, to question and reason. Else we wouldn't have a mind.

The bible makes the woman look evil (1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35* 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. )
(Ecclesiastes 7:26  And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart [is] snares and nets, [and] her hands [as] bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.), that she forced the man to commit "sin", whereas the man has his own mind. He even gives her name, to show he has a mind to think.

Why does the bible make childbirth a curse (Genesis 3:16* 16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. ) ? Isnt it supposed to be a blessing that a woman can actually carry life within her; that God trusts her to that point? It also says, the man shall rule over the woman and the only way for the woman to reach the kigdom of god is thorugh her man () Huh WTF?

Ras Tyehimba posted an article about this sexist aspect of the bible. Please refer to the link below.
http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/index.php?topic=145.0 > selective reasonings > Adam and Eve, The Bible, Sexism and Rastafari


It's a starting point to have a black jesus, but we would still be enslaved in the sense that we'd be waiting for someone that might never return. Like most black people wait for whites to show them love so they can get around to loving themselves.

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Moorfius
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2009, 02:42:12 PM »

We must become serious researchers into what we think we know but in reality don't have a clue about the origins of all western religions.  Read about the history that you have been over looking and find out that only in 325 AD or Ano Domini...at the council (the council that created Jesus) of Nicea headed under the then Cesar of Rome...Constantin...who later chose himself as the first pope and was the leader responsible for the transformation and fabrications that the world worships today...thinking it is from God.

If the truth was known...the church, mosque and temples would have to shut down.  Serapis is the name taken by one of Alexander's generals.  After the death  of the leading invader into what is now called the middle east but is still Africa...Potolamy Soter changed his name to Serapis and started to force the population to worship himself as God. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/serapis.htm

The monks who followed him (serapis) were called the bishops of Christ and this is before there was any such thing as a Jesus.  Only after the Nicea council meetings Serapis was changed to Jesus and the worship of Serapis was transfered to the creature the world has fallen asleep under.

The ancient ancestors (Priest) are not the authors...(nor was any God except the one they made up that only looks like them) of the major religions that has put the world into spiritual bondage with sanctified racism called religion that has plunged the children of the so-called African ancestors into a deep mental and spiritual death.  Spirituality and Religion is not the same thing by any means.

But before doing so he took the concoction of Serapis Sotar who was then the christ before there was any such thing as Jesus and made this false god to be jesus the christ after which europe plunged into its dark ages because the church leaders wanted to purge and  burn all books and kill any persons that could prove otherwise...after this period came the so-called renewal.

This may sound strange if you don't know the facts and find yourself devoted.  But remember truth is stranger than fiction only when you don't knowStudy for yourself now...so that you will know and begin to see "correctly" the truth and be set free from your Spiritual Bondage for ever.


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EmpresKeneilwe
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 02:20:22 PM »

Greetings once again...

For some more reasoning please go to http://worldofjah.ning.com/forum/topics/jesus-and-spiritual-bondage?page=1&commentId=1042051%3AComment%3A395984&x=1#1042051Comment395984  Two Thumbs

It's amazing how we claim oneness and yet we are far from that. I guess thus the reason we are called individuals, right? Well, at least InI are reasoning within this realm (Africa Speaks).

One in many - many in one.

Peace
Keneilwe
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Nazir
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 06:16:02 PM »

The mainstream Constantinian Christianity is not African. But original Christianity is an African religion. Same with Judaism.



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Motingwa I
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 07:53:02 PM »

Greetings.

Reasoning is a sweet part of the faith. I am glad that I have finally found time to wrestle with this topic again! Empress Keneilwe. I re-read your post. This time I realised that you actually said ‘Googled Black Jes-us’ and not ‘google back Jes-us.’ Anyhow, my view on the matter still remains the same. Unfortunately I foresee that I may not have enough reasons or evidence to back up what I have faith in. I man am of the school of thought or belief that there was a saviour who died for our sins. I am however not supportive of overusing the symbolism of the cross, i.e. the ‘death of the Christ should not be celebrated or held up. More time I feel that Christ died because of the sins of mankind rather than  for  them. Anyhow the significance of the murder was that even death had no power over Him.

The Bible is a spiritual book. By their very nature, books are the about the experiences of others. Even the passage you quote from Ecclesiastes 7:26:  “And I find more bitter than death the woman” is but an interpretation of a one and he was not necessarily correct. Should we today turn away from advices of our ancestors who lived in better days just so we can write a new history. I do not disagree that we should be able to make our own decisions and teachings, but shouldn’t we rather continue from where the earlier Book left off rather than toss it out the window? The Bible itself is not the first.

 The Bible is very insightful. Prophecy is about commentating on the state of the world and speaks about the direction we are heading. Like I said before, I believe the Black Christ really came to ‘break down’ and interpret the prophecy for us. The children of Israel were long warned to not learn the ways of strangers or bow down to their Gods. In the world of today it is often times this being taught out of ourselves that leads us astray. The Christ did save us by reassuring us that by keeping God’s Commandments we were doing right. It is not our own sins but the sins that we were taught.

On the question of us declaring our innocence rather than confessing our sins I find some truth in that. People were originally created in righteousness and only became unholy when they were taught out of themselves. Still there is the notion that that the body of a human is prone to sin; that is why we have cravings or desires that might not be in line with righteousness and that is why there is the concept of carnality and that it is a wrong. Essentially we have to learn to use our mind over our body. For some reason I am reminded of an idea I picked up while reading some Kemetic wisdom somewhere; essentially it said that the mind that depends on the body is cursed and the body that depends on the mind is also cursed. My interpretation? For sure I know that the mind must not be led by the body, but can the body ever do something without the mind? Perhaps you can help me to understand this particular teaching. 

I am trying to address your question of wether we need to repent for something or turn away from our ‘sins’ when by ‘Africanism’ we are innocent, or created pure. I have already said how perhaps we were taught out of ourselves and live in a world where our mind can be easily polluted by wrong ideas. Now I wish to turn to the Bible to point out something. There is a passage in Romans (Ch. 7 & Cool which speaks of how only through the sprit of the said saviour can man turn from his sins because his body will always enjoy them and by his nature man is a sinner. In this way a Saviour becomes necessary.



Does the Ible really say that Jah created hell? Is it not man who turned the world into hell? Doesn’t the Bible say he created heaven and earth? I man equate hell to death or suffering which is something that can be avoided if one lives right.

The other part of you reasoning brings up the question of gender. I am still adamant that women and men are different and not unequal even if one is using the Bible. That it is the womb-an who receives the seed from the man is much like how the seed of a tree is planted in the earth.  If in nature womb-and receives the seed, then why should she not receive teachings?

I take things like that the women should not be so loud in public to mean that men and women are different. It can be an unpleasant thing to have to speak in public and perhaps it is fortunate that the woman is protected from such! I am made to think how often it is the woman who actually makes decisions in private in many households and the man only ‘announces it to the world.’

I have tried to put forth that the physical aspect of womanhood bestows on her an importance which no man can lay claim to. She is the bearer of the child and God himself when he put on flesh and came to earth did have to be borne; by a woman. I have come across the notion somewhere that a woman finds salvation in childbirth although I am not sure if that is the only way for a woman to find salvation. It is only through a man that a woman can have a child.

Perhaps it will lead us somewhere to ponder on what I said previously about God on earth being trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the holy one. If ‘woman’ can be substituted for ‘holy – one’ then it is still necessary for woman to exist for God to be perceived on earth. The three-ness is essential; God would never be represented in only a single human body but had to come in three! You can’t have the Son if you don’t have the mother!  My interpretation for now is that males cannot experience the creational aspect of being God but only spiritually.

The Kebra Nagast likens Zion, which was built by Jah hands and where the 10 Commandments were kept, to Mother Mary who carried the Son (who is also called the word) in her womb!

And no I didn’t mean there was no ‘God’ but only gods and goddesses. I still acknowledge that there is a Creator.

I must make a reference to what Moorfius says. Moorfius says that it is the Council at Nicene which created Jes-us?!!?!?? …By my knowledge the Bishops at Nicene are only responsible for the theory that Jes-us was conceived miraculously or ‘immaculately’; that is He was a virgin birth. By my knowledge that is the folly. The Bishops of Nicene mis-interpreted the word ‘virgin’ which is said by conscious people to not mean one who has no carnal knowledge but rather one who is pure in thought (and deed). It is possible to have children in the normal way and by virtue of righteousness still remain a ‘virgin.’
What I know is that the first authors of the Bible were ‘Afrikan Hebrews’ living in Egypt and perhaps it is they that first taught the world about Jes-us. In any case even our naming of the years as B.C. and A.D. shows that the first testimony of Jesus existence was his birth and life! Also I remember the earliest acceptance of Christianity in Ethiopia came long before 325 A.D. when the Apostle Phillip passed on the gospel to the Eunuch of Candace which resulted in Ethiopia being the first Christian nation around 70 A.D.

I have not looked at any of the links. Usually I visit an internet café for a short period of time and download as much material as I think I can digest, so most of my reading and replying is done off-line. I do hope I will remember to follow the links. The issue of the Bible religion being sexist is actually one that has come up as a talking point in my country and I remember some years ago some women wanted to re-write the Bible to speak more favourably of women. Might I say that the English language sometimes falls short; when it is referring to a person it uses ‘he’ or ‘she’ (most preferably ’he’) while that is not possible in my own language Tswana and perhaps many other African tongues. There is no gender based pronoun; either you explicitly state ‘man’ or ‘woman’ or you refer to the human being (even when you use the pronoun for a human it is all encompassing).

I wouldn’t mind to reason more about if ‘Christianity’ is oppressive of women. That could even be a whole topic by itself. I hope my mouthful makes sense.

All the best!
Ras Paul
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SistaOracle
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2009, 03:40:30 PM »

Kaboh! My Brother and Sister, just wanted to get into the fray of this discussion and add my six-pence to it. When it comes to matters of Spirituality none are to be deemed wrong or right it just is, the seeking of salvation by it's very nature is personal to each and every individual, we all travel up the mountain in different guises. Our SOULS which are the integral part of the WHOLE, will always let us know what is right for us when seeking the face of the DIVINE.

I do have to disagree when you refer to death as sin - maybe i read you wrong. There is no such thing as death - the body and mind which is held in this material realm fallsaway and the SOUL which is eternal returns to the WHOLE. Not to Heaven or Hell but to the WHOLE, we are rejoined again with the DIVINE. These are constructs which are held in Western religions, the profane and profound are both equally found in GOD, who wants nothing from us but to BE  UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, which is the pentultimate. Mother/Father God wants for us what we want for ourselves and know this for a fact - call it faith if you like, I didn't get that from no bible/priest/rabbi etc, as far as I', concerned these are again all constructs that put us in and generate FEAR. Thus moving us away from GOD/LOVE. When we have and truely innerstand the concept of LOVE, it's abiding truth will reflect in how men treat women, races interact with each other, how we treat our great mother EARTH, everything will fall into place. Then we wil truely just BE, then the notion of HEAVEN, will be REAL - EYESED and be manifestations coming forth through us.
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Motingwa I
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2009, 07:38:32 PM »

Greetings

Sistren. Your reasoning is very strong and strengthening.

I didn't mean death was a sin. I was saying death is like hell because the righteous don't die. Just like how Christ promised the believers that they would have eternal life. Surely everyone knows that this body will pass from life and it is that which I refer to as death. I still agree that there is no death for the soul but wouldn't you agree that the wicked soul will suffer after death? I will draw from Kemetic wisdom and remember that somewhere was mentioned that a wicked soul will suffer beyond death by for example being re-incarnated as an animal (which leads a life of suffering compared to a human being) while the righteous may be born as an even more elevated personality.

PEACE.
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Motingwa I
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 03:48:24 PM »

...Once again Jes-us say that no one reaches the father except through him!

But if God was Word in the beginning then God is about righteousness and there are few differences in all the religions as to what is and what is not righteous.

And if if Jes-us is equivalent to Horus then perhaps I can still agree with Empress Keneilwe.

Peace.
 
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emmpress_i
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 05:18:16 AM »

There is more to the subject of Spiritual Bondage than what meets the eye. Firstly the creatore dwells within oneslf, within the thoughts, within the conscience and the subconscience. The human body is composed of many chemicals, molecules and compounds which are all present in nature, therefore we are one with nature. If the spirit of Jah dwells within the flesh which is the tarbanacle, is it not then safe to say that Christ was the Almighty in the Flesh?the Earth upon which he trod being a strong symbol of the presence of the creator himself? Is not safe to say also that He and the Father are one and the same? Therefore the word manifests itself into flesh. How can we then stand aloof and say where is God? do come and save us! when it is clear that we are all children of creation and having been given the gift of faith and the gift of speech with the very members which make up our body parts are abundant in nature which for the time being is the strongest symbol of the presence of the Creator we should never be subject to bondage of the spirit. Faith without deed is dead and vice-versa. It is possible to be held under physical bondage, it is quite impossible to bind ones conscience, mind and much less spirit for God is the keeper of that. Time is something within ones soul and mind, babylon have taken it into their hands to measure time with a set of moving needles and 12 numbers. Time is something immeasurable, eternal stretching beyond infinity, if we are composed of time how then can we be subject to spiritual bondage? Time is within. If components of our bodies are made up of all things living how then can we ever be subject to death even in the flesh. Im sure that there was one of my ancestors who lived way back in history who looked exactly like me and had even more overstanding than I do about matters concerning the spirit. This of course is a true matter and here I am again same body same spirit although having undergone physical bondage,you cannot even think to bind me in Spirit. God accepts you for who YOU are given that you go by his statutes and do not commit idolatory or any of the things spoken of in revelation 21 and 22. Who dares cast I and I spirit into bondage if I and I spirit comes from Jah? A faya burn dutty babylon 24/7. Holy Emmanuel I Selassie I JAH and I and I for iver and iver.
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