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25910 Posts in 9966 Topics by 982 Members Latest Member: - Ferguson Most online today: 85 (July 03, 2005, 06:25:30 PM)
+  Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum
|-+  SCIENCE, SOCIOLOGY, RELIGION
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| | |-+  Need Help Defining Ancestor
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Author Topic: Need Help Defining Ancestor  (Read 84579 times)
Oshun Auset
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2006, 05:49:40 PM »

Traditionalists are indeed critiquing/judging someone when they exclude them based on certain shortcomings that are not so extreme as to not be forgiven.

Please explain how elevation is an exclusionary practice.
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preach
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« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2006, 06:38:38 PM »

A thousand pardons. I don't think elevation is an exclusionary practice. That comment followed  Olorisa's statement that traditionalists don't critique. It was also a response to The Rules from a previous post by Oshun Auset.
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OlOrisa_Olokun
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2006, 10:50:12 AM »

A thousand pardons. I don't think elevation is an exclusionary practice. That comment followed  Olorisa's statement that traditionalists don't critique. It was also a response to The Rules from a previous post by Oshun Auset.
You are still missing the point. Ancestor reverence is not about forgiveness or acceptance. Its about making sure that a Spirit is stable and in direct contact w/ the Creator before you INVOKE it and ask it to start working in your life.

I have worked with suicide spirits before. They are completely caught in one moment - the moment of their death! They literally relive that moment over and over and over again. Some soldiers that die go through the same process. This is why Afrikan, Native American and Asian elders taught warriors how to die without being afraid or upset, so as not to disrupt the "transition" process and to increase the likelihood that they would actually make it to the afterworld, as opposed to being stuck on Earth.

A spirit that is caught "in between" is in no position to counsel or aid the living. Furthermore, some deceased make it to the othe side and spend that time processing what they did wrong in this life and it takes from that moment that they arrive until they reincarnate to actually "get it". We dont INVOKE them and give them power in our lives because we dont want them coming down and telling us that "a little shoplifting is okay from time to time" or "sometimes you gotta sell dope to get by" or "little white lies are okay" etc etc. We want to allow them time to HEAL themselves and understand the expectations of the Creator, the collective Ancestors and society. We would no more go to them for advice than we would go to a felon on the corner because we know the felon will tell us to do the wrong thing.

Ancestors are not just dead people. Ancestors are dead people that are in a position to give advice and that have a direct link to the Creator that isnt complicated by any struggles their are having in their own identity. Babies that die are not Ancestors. We love them, but they are not Ancestors. Babies cant give advice or act as a link between you and God. And their premature death marks that something has gone awry - either with us or them, so we focus on getting them healed, not revering them.

This is not about whether we love our dead. We do love them. But when you begin working with spirits of the dead you have to be careful about what "jobs" you "give them" and you gotta be particular, or you will end up invoking not only that spirit but whatever shortcomings that had back into your life.

When you summon a dead person that committed suicide many people in the room will want to cry, some will want to hurt themselves -- instantly! some will fall into depression immediately. This is a clear  sign that this NOT the kind of spirit you should be invoking. When you invoke a corrupt leader, people in the room instantly go on ego trips and want to argue. Again ...why? because when you invoke the dead you invoke the energy and character of their life as well! We have to be sure to invoke people that were good for us and we work to heal the rest. After they are healed (which can take a day or sometimes years) they are inducted into the fold of the Ancestors by the Ancestors themselves! Then the ANCESTORS tell YOU, no the other way around, that the person is now healed and in the afterworld doing well.

Who made these rules for dealing with the dead? The Ancestors did! These are THEIR rules for us.... Its not elitism. Its spiritual science.
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When we have the determination to restrain our lower desires, the door is opened for us to fulfill our highest aspirations.
preach
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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2006, 11:09:31 AM »

Peace OLOrisa_Olokun. Although I don't totally agree with everything you previously wrote, I do respect and understand your point.
Suicide is a very interesting subject. Perhaps in some cases it can be viewed as a selfish act. In others it takes a certain amount of bravery. Actually the living make the biggest fuss about it. So, are the latter in reality the selfish ones who can't let go, or fathom the idea of someone taking their own life?  I personally understand the point at which mental, emotional and/or physical pain becomes so unbearable that there is seemingly only one option. There is much to learn from someone who self euthanasized. Some of the best counselors are the individuals who have experience.
 How can we help in the healing process, when our concentration lies in this realm?     
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OlOrisa_Olokun
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« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2006, 10:20:57 AM »

Whatever position "we" take, recognize that traditional people always considered it a selfish and dangerou act. Again, remember that a person that commits suicide never actually makes it to the other side. They are usually stuck here on Earth, reliving their suicide and whatever pains led up to it. Imagine a suicide victim killing themselves to 'end it all' just to repeat every minute of every hour for two or three decades, with no end in sight. The act never gets them what they want. In fact, if they commit suicide in modern times they are left to develop the spiritual savvy to find their own way to the otherside and into a healing situation.

Our job is to understand what about society has more and more commiting suicide than ever before and what we can do to heal them while they are alive and when their die. In this way we ensure that depression doesnt follow them into future incarnations.
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When we have the determination to restrain our lower desires, the door is opened for us to fulfill our highest aspirations.
afrikanrebel06
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2006, 11:57:16 AM »

i am little suspicscious@ preach,i read some of his thread and he lacks character and substance,often wondering if " preach" isa white rasta disguised as black,by the nature of his contents and he adresses people! Roll Eyes

anywayz,when you call people like that had a bad past and bad life,you are also invoking the spiritual energy that were with this people,ifa person wasa drug addict and alcoholic, you are calling the heavy spiritual energy that was presence with this person,HOWEVER,ifa relative died of natural cause,you have to light upa candle( white candle) 7 seven small candle for each day,and ask eshu to elevate that person to the category of ancestors.
@ preach,i am sure when bush or cheney dies,u gonna make rituals for dem and elevate them as" ancestors" right.

ps: we dont elevate ancestors that were murdered,killed or enslaved,there isa ritual for that,nor do we call people that were our captors and kept us under bondage,we diasporan have indigenous blood and some others in blood line,as for myself,i elevate my ancestors from afrika and my amerindian ancestry,i know the amerindian ancestors will work with the afrikan ancestors Two Thumbs
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preach
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« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2006, 10:06:34 PM »

I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.

-John Cage   
How cute. You think I'm white because my ideas are outside of your box. What specific comments hint towards your revelation? Pray tell young lord. 
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love
KADEKN
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« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2006, 05:15:05 PM »

ONE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT IN LIFE THERE ARE NATURAL DIVINE LAWS OR RULES THAT ONE MAY CHOOSE AT THEIR OWN WILL TO ADHERE TO. IM NOT SPEAKING OF MAN'S LAW EITHER. THIS IS AN ORDER DESIGNED TO MAINTAIN BALANCE AND HARMONY.
IF ONE CHOOSES NOT TO ADHERE, SURELY THERE IS A PENALTY. THIS IS THE CAUSE AND EFFECT OF LIFE. IT SEEMS THAT MAN IS THE ONLY BEING THAT TRIES SO HARD TO CHALLENGE AND GO AGAINST THESE LAWS. HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF DIVINE LAW: A GRAIN OF SAND IS BLOWN INTO YOUR EYE. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? YOUR EYE BEGINS TO FORM TEARS TO WASH AWAY THE PARTICLE SO THAT NO HARM COMES TO IT. WHAT IF YOUR EYE COULD CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT TO TEAR UP. AS YOU KNOW THAT WOULD POSE A GREAT DANGER TO ITSELF BECAUSE IT DID NOT FOLLOW THE NATURAL DIVINE LAWS OF LIFE. THE PENALTY IS LOSS OF VISION OR MAYBE THE EYE. THIS SAME LESSON CAN BE APPLIED TO MAN. WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, IT'S YOUR CHOICE TO BE ONE WITH THESE LAWS.

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KADEKN
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« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2006, 05:37:48 PM »

I MUST STATE THAT MY PREVIOUS POST IS IN RESPONSE TO PREACH QUESTIONING OF THE RULES OF LIBATION. PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S NOT ABOUT AN OLD OR NEW WAY OF THINKING. IT'S NOT ABOUT FORGIVENESS. JUST STOP THINKING AND TRY TO INTUIT THE DIVINE LAWS OF LIFE.
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natural blacks
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« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2006, 07:22:34 PM »

afrikanrebel06...questioning things is a white practice? i as well am very interested in exactly how u came about concluding preach is a white person
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History has shown that it is the inaction of those who could’ve acted; the indifference of those who should’ve known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most that has made it possible for evil to triumph. - EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE I
afrikanrebel06
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« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2006, 04:30:24 PM »

Holy Crap OlOrisa. You said that only the best of the deceased get to be ancestors. Holy Elitists Crap. Your qualifications for ancestors remind me of the ten commandments. How do you expect anyone to live up or die to such a standard? The most influential and caring people I have ever known were not perfect. In fact they had numerous vices. 
RasAtum never let anyone tell you that someone who showed love is unworthy of reverence. Honor your grandfather

what do you make of this statement,then!
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YaoYao
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« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2006, 04:48:09 PM »

I've got just a couple of questions. What if the abominable act that a person was doing while on earth is kept secret? Sometimes, for instance, child molestation is kept hidden. Is there a way to find this out before attempting to communicate with/ honor an ancestor/ ancestress? Also, is there anyway for one who died of suicide to make it back to the land of the living in flesh with his/ her issues still unresolved? What I mean is that could they possibly bring with them into the new life, the old depression or is the absolute prerequisite before a new life that all that stuff has to be resolved. Also, I have a certain way I see things right now. Before I say what I'm about to say let me say first that I'm just a beginnner. I haven't set up an altar or a shrine yet. I've just been gathering information. However, a while back I made up my mind that I have no white ancestors. I have several reasons for this, one being that just how some native peoples don't recognize "white people" who invaded their lands as natives no matter how long they have been there now, I don't recognize the nativity to my genes any "white person" who raped (invaded) their way into an Afuraitkaitnut (African woman) in my lineage. I'm thinking there shouldn't be a problem with this in any original traditional African spiritual system, but just incase I'm asking if there is any conflict here. Also, I had heard about these people who lead a certain lifestyle that we deep unrighteous. I heard that they go to a place where there are only other people just like them. I also heard that in some type of special ceremony we can choose to call them forward into a place where they can either begin their therapy so as to cross-over into the ancestral plain or they carry out their therapy in that inbetween place and then the only way they can make it into the ancestral realm is for us to call them forth. Is any of this true?

Thank you

Htp
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OlOrisa_Olokun
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« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2006, 10:37:37 PM »

I've got just a couple of questions. What if the abominable act that a person was doing while on earth is kept secret? Sometimes, for instance, child molestation is kept hidden. Is there a way to find this out before attempting to communicate with/ honor an ancestor/ ancestress?
If you have access to some form of divination, you can inquire or have a traditional priest inquire. or a less reliable method for some is observe how you feel over time invoking particular people. in any case, you can simply list off attributes of people that you do not want to arrive when you invoke the ancestors and attributes of people that you do want to arrive.

Quote
Also, is there anyway for one who died of suicide to make it back to the land of the living in flesh with his/ her issues still unresolved? What I mean is that could they possibly bring with them into the new life, the old depression or is the absolute prerequisite before a new life that all that stuff has to be resolved.

this is an excellent question, and the answer is yes. we all arrive again, with to some degree some of our unresolves issues resurfacing. 

Quote
Also, I have a certain way I see things right now. Before I say what I'm about to say let me say first that I'm just a beginnner. I haven't set up an altar or a shrine yet. I've just been gathering information. However, a while back I made up my mind that I have no white ancestors. I have several reasons for this, one being that just how some native peoples don't recognize "white people" who invaded their lands as natives no matter how long they have been there now, I don't recognize the nativity to my genes any "white person" who raped (invaded) their way into an Afuraitkaitnut (African woman) in my lineage. I'm thinking there shouldn't be a problem with this in any original traditional African spiritual system, but just incase I'm asking if there is any conflict here.

theortically your thinking is sound. but understand that in the physical plane you are master. on the spiritual plane things of Spirit run the show. while the spirit world may honor your perspective it someday ask you to address someone that did in fact "rape" their way into your family line. if for no reason than to do spiritual work to resolve it.

Quote
Also, I had heard about these people who lead a certain lifestyle that we deep unrighteous. I heard that they go to a place where there are only other people just like them. I also heard that in some type of special ceremony we can choose to call them forward into a place where they can either begin their therapy so as to cross-over into the ancestral plain or they carry out their therapy in that inbetween place and then the only way they can make it into the ancestral realm is for us to call them forth. Is any of this true?

all of it is true, and some of it occurs on a case-by-case basis. its true there is only one "otherworld". it is also true that some people dont get there at all. its is all true that some people that are unrighteous get there, but that doesnt make them an ancestor. it means they have gotten back to the source and have been given an opportunity to process their actions and heal and/or make plans to come back to make their past actions right again. there is no completely clean "concrete" way to explain things. it works by situation as i have observed.

by the way for a "beginner" you have a keen sense of things.
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When we have the determination to restrain our lower desires, the door is opened for us to fulfill our highest aspirations.
YaoYao
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« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2006, 11:28:24 PM »

Thank you for your reply. If you don't mind, I have one more question. What happened to our ancestors who lived and died in the Maafa? I read somewhere, I think on this site, that we are not to pour libations to them or something like that. I could be mistaken. If I am not mistaken, then why should we not honor them?

Thank you

htp
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OlOrisa_Olokun
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« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2006, 09:04:38 AM »

Thank you for your reply. If you don't mind, I have one more question. What happened to our ancestors who lived and died in the Maafa? I read somewhere, I think on this site, that we are not to pour libations to them or something like that. I could be mistaken. If I am not mistaken, then why should we not honor them?

Thank you

htp
Many Ancestors that died during the Maafa have since been elevated, so we can safely pour libation to them. Although in retrospect I think about how I used to invoke them in a really casual way. lol Some of them have not been elevated however. What I believe works to our advantage in this case is that many people before us have already "defined the perimeters". That is, these deceased know we are talking to the elevated ones and that when we say we want those in need of healing to seek "out the light" for example, they too, know who we are talking to, having heard all of this for many years now.

the principle remains the same - elevated spirits that are firmly in the other world can assist us. spirits that are not completely elevated, that might stil roam the seas or foreign lands are in no position to help us, they need to help themselves. when you pour libation, you arent just honoring a spirit, you are welcoming it to give advice and assist in your daily affairs. only healthy elevated spirits need to do that kind of thing on your behalf.
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When we have the determination to restrain our lower desires, the door is opened for us to fulfill our highest aspirations.
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