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25892 Posts in 9959 Topics by 982 Members Latest Member: - Ferguson Most online today: 133 (July 03, 2005, 06:25:30 PM)
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2004, 01:07:17 PM »

I know, I was just toying with ya   Wink
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Bantu_Kelani
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2004, 03:39:50 PM »

Quote
Untrue.  Calling him "rabbi" does not mean he WAS a rabbi.  "Rabbi" means "teacher," which he was, a teacher.  In the same sense, I am a minister, but I am not a pastor or priest.

The stories in the Bible and Yeshua/the Krst character were created by ancient priests/kings to MAKE SECRET (instead of sharing) Universal wisdom....If there is any evidence Yeshua character was a real person, in that case the historical Yeshua was an African Hebrew Israelite, following the Laws of his Ancestors and the Torah! Jewish customs of his day required married Rabbis. Unmarried men were considered a curse to Jewish society. Yeshua would not have had much credibility as a leader had he not been married!! His father Joseph/Yeshua Ben Yusef was careful to perfectly obey the Jewish traditions. Since Jewish culture practiced arranged marriages and early marriage, most biblical scholars would concede Yeshua' father would have performed his parental duties faithfully and arranged a bride for Yeshua at age 16, age when a Jewish boy was marriageable.

When you call Jesus/Yeshua a rabbi, it is IMPORTANT for you to know that it means that Yeshua was Jewish a well-recognized leader/teacher, perfectly obeying the laws of his people!! The marriage of Jesus Christ is a taboo subject because most Christians regard Yeshua sexuality as an impious idea. The Great Master of the Cosmos has purposely given to us humans sexual organs. True spiritualist therefore know sex is not taboo dirty, unclean or immoral but a Sacred, Holy opportunity to merge with another in spiritual and physical ecstasy. It is when we lack Divine consciousness that intimacy is egotistical and immoral. Ponder upon this truth.

Bantu Kelani.
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2004, 04:17:32 PM »

"If there is any evidence Yeshua character was a real person, in that case the historical Yeshua was an African Hebrew Israelite, following the Laws of his Ancestors and the Torah!"

The Yeshua that is part of my faith is a Nazarene, which makes him of Arabic descent - as if that has any relevance to his spirit.

"Unmarried men were considered a curse to Jewish society."

Kinda fits with that whole crucifixion deal I hear so much about, huh?

"When you call Jesus/Yeshua a rabbi, it is IMPORTANT for you to know that it means that Yeshua was Jewish a well-recognized leader/teacher, perfectly obeying the laws of his people!!"

Quite on the contrary he was reviled and hated by "his people."  Except for about 120 of them who were called a cult.  The true Christians, that is.  The later formation of the Christian church bore no resemblance theologically to the true disciples of the Christ.

"The marriage of Jesus Christ is a taboo subject because most Christians regard Yeshua sexuality as an impious idea."

It's a "taboo subject" because there is absolutely no basis for it in the scriptures and the arrangement of marriage had no role in his tasks that he had to perform as a human, namely laying down the law of love and serving as a propitiary sacrifice for mankind.

"True spiritualist therefore know sex is not taboo dirty, unclean or immoral but a Sacred, Holy opportunity to merge with another in spiritual and physical ecstasy."

I never said sex is dirty, unclean, or immoral, but FORNICATION is.  Because Jesus was never married, my point stands.  Besides, as a perfect man he was not hindered by lustful appitites like you and I.
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Bantu_Kelani
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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2004, 04:51:29 PM »

What is the difference between sex and fornification in your gullible and materialistic mind? Yeshua was of Arabic descent?? Your ignorant response is the blind response I expect anyhow..

If you are of European descent I could care less of your poorer theological and cultural beliefs....Let the GOOD and learned of our people to educate our own people! Peace and Pride.

Bantu Kelani.
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2004, 05:29:02 PM »

How did you make the poignant observation that I am gullible and materialistic?  You certainly do not know me well enough to have such insight.  And both are pretty untrue in light of the fact that I own very few things and do not pursue materialistic goals in this life but devote much of my time to the global preaching work that Jesus commanded us to.

Fornication is sex outside of the marriage arrangement and is condemned by the true and living God (Galatians 5:19-22) and those that practice such things "will not inherit God's kingdom."

Last time I checked Nazareth was near the Red Sea, right in the land mass north of Saudi ARABIA.  The fact that you concern yourself with his race only shows how CARNALLY minded YOU are, no?  It's the spirit and soul of Yeshua I embrace, not any physical representation of him.  That'd be a form of idolatry anyway.

To add the matter, a good number of your learned people attend my place of worship and are a member of my faith (Jehovah's Witnesses) and the same holds true on the continent of Africa and the ministry has been expanding and growing there since the early 1950s.
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Bantu_Kelani
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2004, 03:14:51 AM »

You are and have aligned yourself with blatant IGNORANCE and would dare insinuate that your perspectives are not gullible!! It is time for you to rise above copied theology and support knowledgeable evidence. Yeshua the Hebrew Israelite was born in Bethlehem, and was raised in Nazareth area known as Palestine (modern day Israel) in the Mediterranean region of Southwest Asia or Middle East. Therefore the village area of Nazareth was not located in the Arab states of the southwest area. You have nothing to defend. You just display a narrow perspective. To me it is being "materialistic", lacking recognition and knowledge, being crystallized in your unconscious character, like animals, rocks or stones incapable of becoming conscious on a higher level on your own.

Your speaking of Idol worship is hypocritical, whereas THE BLOOD SACRIFICE OF JESUS is the most "pagan" concept! You slam liberal (but spiritual) physical intimacy calling it "fornication", while anyone should be free to experience sexual ecstasy or mate without anyone sentence or opinion. You Christians do not have all the pieces of Universal Laws and Wisdom, than so too your Holy Bible. The mysteries of the Laws, elements of the Universe are inconceivable in its profundity. The Great Spirit of the Universe transcends mere mortal estimation or consent. Are you really a Son of God? Why do you fail to condemn the Christian deity constantly and persistently portray as white? It is white people who in Hollywood productions like Ben Hur, King of Kings, The 10 Commandments, Jesus of Nazareth and David and Goliath all paint Jesus white!! So why do you point "a carnal" motive if Black people see the opportunity to write and paint the allegorical figure of Yeshua as a Blackman to distance themselves from their former slave holding oppressors. But no that is NOT the kind of Jesus you loves. Jesus is only Jesus, if you whites and nobody else tell him!!!

Go preach to the Negro of the world or the decedents of African slaves void of any spiritual autonomy and decency. For modern day Negroes have lost their indigenous spiritual practices, which have been replaced with chattel slave Christianity that do not even recognize God within ourselves and about us. The silliness you say is appalling for my right mind to bear...

Bantu Kelani.
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iyah360
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2004, 08:31:43 AM »

out_of_zion, you stated in another post:

"The I has never been taught all of the true history of Africans because of exactly what you say, an "erasing" of history; reminds me of Orwell's 1984 quite a bit when I think of it.  All conscious thinkers quickly realize in high school that the history they are taught is terrifically tainted & innacurate.  The sad fact is there is scarcely a source to replace it with facts.  I have a book called Lies My Teacher Told Me written by a man named James W. Loewen and he takes a look at the true history of the Federal Govt and "The Disappearance of the Recent Past."  While it does not focus on black history specifically, it definitely highlights the phenomenon that you're speaking of and I know it exists..."

Although you may believe in a colorless spiritual redemption of mankind, it is important for you to realize the realities of living in a racist system. Your spirituality should not be an excuse to DENY the facts of the physical reality in which you live. I admonish you to look into and learn about African history and the legacy that the oldest people on earth have left for mankind. A good place to start is a book called "Introduction to African Civilizations" by John G. Jackson. Once the I sees what has been stolen juxtaposed with the state of Africa and her people today(at home and abroad), it may give a new perspective of the reality in which you live in.  

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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2004, 10:51:39 AM »

BK,

It's a shame your religion is race and your god is skin color.

"For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." -Peter, Acts 10:34,35

And that is the last thing I am saying on the issue of race.  My religion is devoid of racist motives and agenda and is completely severed from the Imperialism of Christedom & Islam (Babylon the Great) that Jehovah God condemns.  As I wrote earlier, I embrace the spirit of Jesus and am not concerned with whether he was black, arab (which I think he was), or white.  The Bible is composed of men of many races.  Job was Oriental (Job 1:4); Moses was black; Joseph & Jesus were Arab; Paul was white/Jewish; etc, etc.  It doesn't matter.  I do not like the way Jesus is portrayed as white either, b/c like you I agree he was NOT white.  The WORST of this is the Mormon church who not only portrays Jesus as white, but the invisible spirit God Yahweh or Jehovah is portrayed as white by them, too, even called "the great white god." By all my estimations he was a speaker of the Aramaic/Hebrew language which causes me to visualize him as a middle eastern man.

Moving on,

\For"ni*cate\, v. i. [L. fornicatus, p. p. of fornicari to fornicate, fr. fornix, -icis, a vault, a brothel in an underground vault.] To commit fornication; to have unlawful sexual intercourse. v. To have sex without being married

source: dictionary.com

It's significant to note here that the Latin word for fornication is derived from the word for "brothel," indicating that there was a strong link between pre-marital sex and prostitution - it was engaging in sexual relations that were viewed as immoral at the time.  The penalty for a Jewish woman that had sex prior to marriage was DEATH.  That was why Joseph was going to break off his engagement with Mary when he found out she was pregnant without making it known to anyone.  She would have been stoned to death.

Look at the exortation found in the scriptures and the strong language used in the warnings to abstain from fornication:

"Flee from fornication. Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but he that practices fornication is sinning against his own body." --1 Corinthians 6:18

"Deaden, therefore, your body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry." --Colossians 3:5

It seems that in your obscure words, you're trying to justify fornicating pleasure sex and indicate that you believe Jehovah actually approves of sex outside of the marriage arrangement, but it's obvious where this will leave you with regard to God's chosen and faithful:

"Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolators and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."  --Revelation 22:15

Of course, since you reject the Bible and do not hold it to be the word of Almighty Jehovah, you've made the choice for yourself to "be free to experience sexual ecstasy or mate without anyone sentence or opinion" which you certainly DO have the freedom to do.  Just don't be surprised if there's consequences for this "freedom."  Freedom isn't freedom if it's bondage to sin.
---
As for the blood of Christ being a pagan concept - that's absurd.  It was not literally the blood that provided salvation, but the giving of his life; and blood is the life force (Genesis 9:4, 16).
---
It's a shame you're so consumed by racial anger and hate that you're not able to see past the atrocities of the past and embrace Christ as your savior, for:

"there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved."  --Acts 4:12

I also think it's rather sad you've CHOSEN to trade your chance at salvation for some free-love "spiritual" (as you call it) hippie sex.  Sex is sacred and should be reserved for a person that you join in a sacred union.

No appologies for the blunt truth of the Bible; it's serving it's purpose as the "sword of the spirit" (Ephesians 6:17).  It's why I've used scriptures.  Reject those words, you're rejecting Jehovah.  Reject my words, and it's a pointless petty argument (see: race discussion above).



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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2004, 10:57:46 AM »

"Although you may believe in a colorless spiritual redemption of mankind, it is important for you to realize the realities of living in a racist system."

Iyah - You could not have phrased this more accurately, except for the verb "believe."  I not only "believe" in a colorless spiritual redemption, but am an active part of such a redemption system and love serving Jehovah shoulder to shoulder with people of every race and nationality on the planet.  There may only be 6.4 million of us, but it's a diverse group, 299 languages, almost every land.

Also, have you read the Autobiography of Malcolm X?  I just bought a copy a few weeks ago and am really looking forward to reading it.  I didn't know he had written an autobio.
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iyah360
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« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2004, 11:12:56 AM »

"It's a shame your religion is race and your god is skin color.  

"For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." -Peter, Acts 10:34,35  

And that is the last thing I am saying on the issue of race.  My religion is devoid of racist motives and agenda and is completely severed from the Imperialism of Christedom & Islam (Babylon the Great) that Jehovah God condemns."

Are you being wise in your own conceit? If you do not know where the sister is coming from, it is wrong to keep puffing yourself up. You cannot seperate yourself from the worldly reality of racism under the guise of a spiritual path. This is what you are doing, though you may not realize it.

I would like to believe I don't have to live with the reality of the new world order(same old bullsh**), but I can't just deny its presence. I need to learn as much as I can about the motives and plans of the powers that be so I don't get ensnared. I and I do not exist in a vacuum, we are shaped by the environment around us just as we consciously and unconsciously shape that environment. Know your enemy, know yourself.
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2004, 01:21:54 PM »

The truth of the matter is she's not even properly representing her own religion by saying things like

"If you are of European descent I could care less of your poorer theological and cultural beliefs...."

Haile Selassie I himself made a call for respect of others' heritage & religions, but she continues to belittle Christianity as a "white man's religion" when in fact Christendom extends over 1/3rd of the world's pop. & as I stated earlier the organization INI belong to is in every country and forms a unified worldwide brotherhood, something no man-made GOVERNMENT has or ever will attain to.

"We know that unity can be and has been attained among men of the most disparate origins, that difference of race, of religion, of culture, of tradition, are no insurmountable obstacles to the coming together of peoples."  -Haile Selassie

Iyah: "You cannot seperate yourself from the worldly reality of racism under the guise of a spiritual path. This is what you are doing, though you may not realize it."

What do INI have to separate from?  The people I associate with are not racist; I am not racist.  The fact that whites in the past did things to the African race that are destible is beyond my control.  Too much is made of the issue of race.  People are people.

But the I is wasting my time reasoning with her, anyway, because she is too prideful to give any thoughtful consideration to anything except her own principles and thought, wildly obvious by the remark, "the silliness you say is appalling for my right mind to bear..."  

This "silliness" was geography and scripture.  I guess I shouldn't have acknowledged that there is a continent north of Africa where Galilee, the area of Yeshua's ministry, lies.

iyah - You write that you are concerned with the motives and plans of the new world order.  I wouldn't let that become a matter of too much concern, iyah.  It's just the blackhead of Babylon's pustule and that it is destined to fall apart at the great battle of Armageddon.  What happens before then is only going to be an inconsequential matter of history for the "great crowd" of survivors "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the Lamb..." (Rev 7:9).  Rather than dwell upon the wickedness of this system, why not motivate your spirit by thinking of the promises JAH has made to the meek "who shall inherit the earth (Mt 5:5)"?
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iyah360
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« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2004, 01:46:00 PM »

I used the new world odor as an analogy as a possible bridge for you to overstand the race issue. "I need to learn as much as I can about the motives and plans of the powers that be so I don't get ensnared." This is the same as the racism issue.

But, if you think it is just going to go away(as you think racism will, and the two are not seperate), that is your right.  
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Bantu_Kelani
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« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2004, 05:08:56 PM »

Quote
The truth of the matter is she's not even properly representing her own religion by saying things like

"If you are of European descent I could care less of your poorer theological and cultural beliefs...."

Haile Selassie I himself made a call for respect of others' heritage & religions, but she continues to belittle Christianity as a "white man's religion" when in fact Christendom extends over 1/3rd of the world's pop. & as I stated earlier the organization INI belong to is in every country and forms a unified worldwide brotherhood, something no man-made GOVERNMENT has or ever will attain to.

"We know that unity can be and has been attained among men of the most disparate origins, that difference of race, of religion, of culture, of tradition, are no insurmountable obstacles to the coming together of peoples."  -Haile Selassie

Iyah: "You cannot seperate yourself from the worldly reality of racism under the guise of a spiritual path. This is what you are doing, though you may not realize it."

What do INI have to separate from?  The people I associate with are not racist; I am not racist.  The fact that whites in the past did things to the African race that are destible is beyond my control.  Too much is made of the issue of race.  People are people.

But the I is wasting my time reasoning with her, anyway, because she is too prideful to give any thoughtful consideration to anything except her own principles and thought, wildly obvious by the remark, "the silliness you say is appalling for my right mind to bear..."  

This "silliness" was geography and scripture.  I guess I shouldn't have acknowledged that there is a continent north of Africa where Galilee, the area of Yeshua's ministry, lies.
...

I will make it abundantly clear my objective is primarily communicating, whether it be written or oral, to Black people (African) to debunk and challenge information such as yours coming from outsiders. I'm not stupid or ignorant. But you seem to have a severe problem of self-denial to notice it. FACTS: Christianity is responsible for a lot of pain and suffering that the African people have had to deal with and endure, from slavery to modern day severe brainwashing of the so-called African man, let's not forget that Judaism and Islam has also contributed heavily to our despair. Remember that this religion that you are so proud of costed millions of African life and countless other cruelty and atrocious acts. Africans are not better today because of these three religions, as a matter of fact we are worse off than we were before the onslaught of these downpressors. The Qu'ran and the Bible teaches about love, peace and the sanctity of the human life, whereas Africans lost countless numbers of innocent people because of your blood filled religions. As an African who know too much the drama of history I cannot separate the criminals and the religion itself, after a while they are all the same one in the other...The hypocrisy of Christians who find it necessary to blame the totalitarian laws and Islamic based criminal system=dictatorship worldwide, behave in the same way and who condemn them. All you uneducated people have only one thing to contribute - make Africans docile and passive while the so-called white Christian rules the world and practice unchristian ways, just as Islam has made the African an Arab.

I rejoice each day because I'm not enslaved to the obtuse doctrines of conqueror priesthood. I have the desire to understand Universal Wisdom with my own intellect, mind and reason. I follow the energy and vibrations of the largest galaxy to the smallest particle, plus humanity all encompassing , our planet, trees and plants, other realms and dimensions including ideals and time. I claim no religion, for I have any conceit to claim a monopoly on truth. The mysteries of life are within myself and into the physical and metaphysical world. Small pieces of Universal Wisdom are to be found in legends throughout the world: Nubia-Khemet esotericism, Mexican Quexalcoatl, the Kaballah, old Greek philosophy, Hinduism-Yoga and Taoism-Buddhism etc. We are all the Universal Laws, without us there is no mental creation of the ALL (God). "The Grand Mysteries" result largely from us. I need no priestly infamy to seek and find the fundamental truth.

To suggest I am intolerant and angry is ludicrous. The mistake your making is thinking that my messages that chronicles our oppression in the past and how it relates to our present day condition is somehow on the opposite end of the spectrum as it relates to philanthropy. The same people as you who charge me are diametrically opposed to Black nationalists or the philosophy in the traditional African religions. Why is that?? Observe how I allow you to push up your egos and agendas on this forum instead of liberating black people from a doctrine that cannot save them. You have the freedom to voice your opinion on this Black forum no matter how detrimental it is to our African honor and traditional spirituality. I therefore fail to see how whether I am bigoted towards Caucasians. If the obvious truth hurts, go on quit reasoning with me. Forwarding and seeking realities is certainly not your priority.


Bantu Kelani.


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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2004, 08:28:36 PM »

"FACTS: Christianity is responsible for a lot of pain and suffering that the African people have had to deal with and endure, from slavery to  modern day  severe brainwashing of the so-called African man, let's not forget that Judaism and Islam has also contributed heavily to our despair."

I do not know how many times I have stated it is not CHRISTIANITY but CHRISTENDOM, the world wide mockery of the principles set forth by Christ but never attained to.

You state that you abhor Judiasm then a few lines later say you engage in the Kaballah, the words, wisdom and practices of Jewish mystics.  Which is it?

It just seems with a degree of strinking overtness that you lack the principles that many in religions worldwide make a concerted effort to inculcate, which is the spurring point that drives you to make such heated retorts when you're challenged theologically.  That is to say, you don't seem to be at peace with yourself and your place in this world - at all.
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Rootsie
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« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2004, 10:15:21 PM »

I think there are real problems with the Judeo-Christian construct itself.

Such as 'The Fall of Man' in linear time which makes it necessary for God to separate a piece of himself off to 'redeem' it. By dying hideously.  Our ancestors who originated these stories viewed time as cyclical, with fall and redemption implicit in each moment. A choice. If you literalize what is after all the eternal INTERNAL human struggle, you have this idea that people have to wait until the end of time for 'salvation.'  For some that means you can do any old thing as long as you ask for forgiveness at the last second. For others that means you wait with the 'patience of the Saints' for the end of time and don't do anything to improve the situation. 'Christian activists' like Dr. King were interpreting Jesus according to their own values: Jesus in the Gospels never says much about taking an active stance against injustice. Paul said slaves should obey their masters and everybody should do what the government says.

Also such as the Chosen People/ Promised Land idea. Put a little firepower behind that and voila: the last 2000 years of history.

The literalism of Judaism and then Christianity is a big problem. God lives in a box in the Temple in Jerusalem-literally. What happens when you lose the box and the Temple gets burned down? You have a bereaved people with a pessimistic theology. Waiting for some final dispensation from above.

I don't think it's possible to separate the actions of Christians from their theology. Their theology naturally leads to xenophobia (the Old Testament stories of the conquest and murder of cities down to the last animal is a good example), makes imperialism and racism a natural.
The Christians who have opposed this narrow-mindedness have been cut down by other Christians.

I really do think that the problem boils down to the transposing the earliest cosmic myths dealing with the divine order and the eternal recurring cycles of life onto the idea of linear time, a straight line from lost past to fallen present to imagined future. It is essentially disempowering.
They took stories which illuminated the divine order of the cosmos and turned them into a rigid 'history' which they see as literal. And if any disagree, well, the Chosen People will take care of that, because God is on their side.

Being 'color-blind' is a luxury afforded to the privileged. They're the only ones who seem to think race doesn't matter. This world and what is happening in it matters spiritually. With all that harping on the eternally fallen nature of flesh, the duality of spirit/flesh, it becomes okay to trash the earth, extinct species of animals, extinct dark-skinned people, trash women...this all comes from the Genesis 'dominion over nature.'

That there have always been Christians who dispute this has little to do with the teaching itself. Fortunately, there are larger forces at work than this narrow-minded ideology. I speak as somebody who came through it and out the other side. And where I ended up is with the beginning of all things, in Africa, with our shared human ancestors, who it turns out had a lot of it right.  The origin of every Judeo-Christian story and every Judeo-Christian symbol is there. And it's possible to see where the wrong turn was made.

Rootsie

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