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Author Topic: Veribility of the Bible  (Read 27435 times)
hailiniemperor
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« on: January 27, 2004, 11:10:04 PM »

I personally believe that many parts of the Bible have been distorted, especially the New Testament. The Bible was canonized in 325 AD by a council under Emperor Constatine of Rome. Since learning this I have been worried a bit cuz InI know that no truth and Righteousness can ever come out of Rome. Except maybe for Socrates and I have heard that Socrates wasnt even born a Roman but was a black man. If u havent noticed the Old and New Testament contradict one another. So I would like people to reason with me and give me your responses. Big up!
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2004, 11:19:10 AM »

Well, what you read about it being canonized in Rome is true, but they didn't write scriptures there.  The most corrupt thing that the Romans really did was making Christianity into a highly organized and man-run religion.  They more or less did the same thing that the scribes and pharisees did to Judiasm, attempting to remove the religion from the grasp of the layman and put it in the hands of the powerful (and rich) clergy.  This was done by keeping Bibles in Latin instead of the languages used by common folk, inventing non-Biblical concepts as canonized dogmatic doctrine, such as the trinity and purgatory.

The actual taking of the writings that were to be considered for the Bible and decided what was spurious (meaning not written by the original authors) and what was authentic.  Later scholars confirmed this original work, but there is always an aire of debate, as with most theological issues.  However, this is not really where the Roman church corrupted Christianity, at least in my opinion.  It was much more of their heirarchal domination and outright tyranny.  There are areas of the Bible that were altered slightly, and I will touch on those in a later response.  It's mainly word choice between translation, so it's not a matter of scripture fabrication.

As for the NT and Hebrew scriptures "contradicting one another."   That, too, is a debateable matter.  It was something I said before I really studied the Word and read it from cover to cover.  They do not contradict.  It's important to realize that Almighty Jehovah does not change (Titus 1:2), and because of that, his Word does contradict.  

Now I know what I have said is a vast oversimplification of what you want in terms of an answer, but I have limited time to write on the matter right now, and I'm not exactly sure how I want to go about answering your question.  But I will take more time later, OK?   thx.
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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
out_of_Zion
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2004, 03:54:25 PM »

That scripture I cited as Titus 1:2, I meant to put Malachi 3:6,

"For I am Jehovah; I have not changed."  (partial quotation)

I guess the best place to start would be my asking what you feel is contradictory?  From my point of view I always found it contradictory that there was a commandment "Thou shalt not kill" and Jehovah had ordered the destruction of entire nations when the Israelites were to take over the land of Canaan.  From what I've been able to ascertain is that it was not an act of murderous killing, but rather a divine judgement, followed by a decree.  Thus, their sanctioned war against the pagan people was as though it was Jehovah himself destroying them, as he did the cities of Sodom & Ghomorrea, or the pre-flood world, etc.  Therefore, it is a judgement of Gehenna (or eternal destruction, kolasis, Greek, "cutting off")...

Is that one of your questions?  What discrepancies do you find to be contradictory?  I'll do my best to answer any questions you have and if I don't know the answer off hand I won't spurt crap; I'll do some research.

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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
hailiniemperor
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AfricaSpeaks.com


« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2004, 01:56:03 AM »

Wuz up Out of Zion, u know really right now the two biggest contradictions I dont check with is how, in the Old Testament it lays the law for what foods not to eat, and then in the New Testament Jesus says All Foods are Clean. I despise the wicked, and with that stance I would be a righteous man by the terms of the Old Testament, but in the New Testament Jesus says love ur Enemies and turn ur cheek. I dont turn my cheek for nobody. Somebody better believe I will protect myself, I keep my dignity. Not Pride cuz I aint afraid to get my ass whooped in front of everybody, I just hold myself upright. Strait in Selassie Structa. U think Selassie turn the other cheek when Mussolynchthee came and invaded Ethiopia. So yeah I believe some parts of the Bible have been fabricated but especially the New Testament. If u wanna see more examples of contradictons go to Google.Com and type in Biblical Contradictions. Peace.
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Oshun_Auset
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2004, 12:12:39 PM »

Greeting everyone,

I am new to the forum and would like to add another element to this discussion. What about the Bible and the concepts in Christianity and Judaism being borrowed/stolen form previous cultures, mythologies, or spiritual concepts...particularly those of KMT/andcient Egypt?

Most of the stories/themes in th Bible were already around in North East Afrika prior to it's writting(and subsiquent perversions). Since we have the origional papyri from the Nile Valley civilizations to verify this...Why don't we just skip the adulterated versions of our origional African spirituality and go to the scource?
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Forward to a united Africa!
iyah360
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Higher Reasoning


« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2004, 01:09:37 PM »

"The pygmoid Tswa people, who reside in the Zairian province of Equator, tell a . . . legend of the sainted ancestor who ascended to the sky. His name is DJAKOBA; his diminutive descendents call themselves the "children of Djakoba," as Schebesta reported. Hebrew Ya'akoba or English JACOB was the original name of Israel, the first Israelite, who sired the famous Children of Israel. After his death, according to the legends in the Hebrew Talmud, Jacob or Israel went to live in the moon.

The Tswa "Children of Jacob" piously maintain that God or a spiritual force somehow intervened on their behalf to divide a body of water. This fragmentary and poorly understood tradition is summarised in Schebesta's description of "elima, the vital force that parted the water(?)." His text explains that Elima probably represented the original Tswa "name of the supreme being, thus of God." In the Efe language, ilani or ila is energy, force, power, or strength. The Pygmies use this word to describe any form of energy. Ila'tado, "pulling energy," is the Efe name for the magnetic force embodied in lodestones. Pygmies who have seen magnets explain that these devices operate by the same principle, Such enormously abstract concepts and words are commonplace among the vast ostensibly "savage" Pygmies. Ilani or ila demonstrates the vast antiquity and importance of these concepts: Old Norse elijan, energy; Anglo-Saxon ellen, strength; Hebrew el or il, a strong and mighty one, a hero, a god, God, Arabic ilah, God; Al-ilah, the God, "Allah"; Phoenician elonim or elim, Hebrew elohim, god or gods; Tswa elima, the vital force or God.

Genesis 1:1 proclaims in Hebrew that Elohim created the hevens and the earth, after which the deity recited the "Let ther be" formula. The book of Exodus give a rousing account of the journey accomplished by the children of ISrael through the divinely parted waters. The pygmoid "Children of Jacob" are better known as the Tswa, a name that illustrates their close connections with the Sua Pygmies of the southern Ituri and the pygmoid Twa people of Zaire, Burundi, Rwanda and the bordering regions of western Uganda, where a few upre-blooded pygmy bands survive on the eastern side of the Mountains of the Moon. Egyptian records dating back to the sixth dynasty describe the Pygmies as a semi-legendary people of the far southland or equatorial :land of trees and spirits" near the Mountains of the Moon. E.A. Wallis Budge verigies that the Pygmies were undoubtedly well known to the predynastic Egyptians. The Pygmies by any stretch of the imagination be interpreted as the descendents of Hebrews or Israelites who departed from Egypt no earlier that the fiteenth century B.C. or during ANY period of Egyptian history."

- "pygmy Kitabu", p. 113-114

Here are some links to start you in researching the African origins of Judaism and Christianity.


!JACOB, ISRAEL of TSWA(PYGMY) PEOPLE!
http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1069957148

RED SEA PASSAGE FABLE OF THE NAMA PEOPLE
http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1068485221

Exodus Story of Bible = Egyptian astro-mythology
http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1068480104

"UR" IS CELESTIAL, NOT GEOGRAPHICAL!!
http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1068483829

THE EXODUS STORY OF THE MERU of KENYA
http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1066833814

Text from the book, Hebrew and Other Creations, by Gerald massey
http://africawithin.com/massey/gml1_hebrew.htm

Text from the book, The Historical Jesus and Mythical Christ, by Gerald massey
http://africawithin.com/massey/gml1_jesuschrist.htm

A comparative list of some pre-existing and pre-Christian data which were christianized in the Canonical Gospels and the Book of Revelation."  
http://www.theosophical.ca/AncientEgyptAppendix.htm  
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Oshun_Auset
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2004, 02:34:24 PM »

...I actually know about the Tswa people ...The twa are the archetype for Bes...the Dwarf Neteru and the KMTians made i quite clear they derived their spiritual systems from 'up' the nile(the interior of Africa)...I thought I was starting from a point(KMT) hopefully more familiar to the previous posters...Sorry for my assumption...I was just asking about what the people prior to my posting thought about skipping over the (Bible) entirely(you are welcone to respond).

What bothers me a little is how this information is so readily available(especially on this site I've noticed) but us Africans insist on concentrating on the Bible? Isn't that allowing our current eur-centric/neo-colonial society to dominate even the spirituality we concentrate on?

I like your post and thanks for the links! One of my favorite sites is Africawithin. They have excellent info....what scares me is your very interesting posts...have very few responses!...which concerns me even more about us being 'stuck' in the Bible.
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iyah360
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Higher Reasoning


« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2004, 03:23:40 PM »

Peace.

Give thanks for the response. First off, I must say that I am a white American who tries to give as much respect to the Rasta livity as possible from my perspective.

I cannot speak for Africans, only from myself and personal journey in research and life experience. I should not have introduced part of my post with "Here are some links to start you in researching the African origins of Judaism and Christianity" I actually had posted this whole thing in ANOTHER post addressing someone else with less knowledge about the topic than I feel I had. You probably know even more than me, and it would be GREAT if you would bless the post with some of your knowledge on the topic!

This post was actually started by, from what I can gather, a young white American who is trying to rectify Rastafari within his life and perspective. The subsequent response is from a poster who is a white Jehovah's Witness who is trying to get an overstanding of the Rastafari livity. So thus far, it has just been white Americans debating the bible within the context of Rastafari on this post.

It would be great to know the reasons for the limited responses to the posts I have put up. I know people read them, but perhaps there is not much to add after I write? Hopefully the posts have caused some people to look into the subject matter for themselves, and perhaps others already know it all already.

The following is an interesting thread as well on the message board section of this site:

http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/config.pl?read=37228

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Oshun_Auset
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2004, 04:17:10 PM »

That was an interesting thread...I agree whole heartedly, not only with the admission that Ethiopian and KMTian empires were oppressive...But that too many people also get "stuck" in both of the spiritually and historically.

I am a Pan-Africanist(socialist) politically as well as a Pan-Africanist spiritually/culturally, and  I try to learn from all the spiritual systems of the continent(and globally) and her people .

Dogma turns "we living" into "religion".  We must live the spirituality and the Tswa people definately did, and continue to do that. Living in harmony with nature is a holy existance.

Personally, I practice Ifa to honor my direct ancestors...but it is all related...just as humanity and all life is related.

I'm quite curious... I know you are an individual, but you may be able to enlighten me . What attracts European/White people to Rastafari and  other African centered spirituality?

Is it just because you are looking for the source of things..which happens to be Africa, or are there other factors at play?
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2004, 09:22:30 AM »

haileemperor,

There's a few things you have to realize about the scriptures...so-called "contradictions" can appear in any person's analysis of a compilation of books as large as the Bible, but the overall message is in harmony.  Further, there are things in the Hebrew scriptures that were based on the Law Covenant of Moses which later became anulled by the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus (the unclean food topic you mention falls within this category).

With regards to hating the wicked, though, the New Testament Greek scriptures do not say tha you cannot hate wicked people.  They actually do confirm the same outlook.  

Compare Romans 12:9, "Let your love be without hypocrisy.  Abhor what is wicked cling to what is good."  

And then again in Hebrews 1:9, "You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness.  That is why God your God anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners."

At no point do the Greek scriptures condone wickedness.  Now, as to the "turning the other cheek" illustration, what Jesus was affirming was that we should not actively seek these conflicts because:

"Vengeance is mine, and retribution.  At the appointed time their foot will move steadily, For the day of their disaster is near, And the events in readiness for them do make haste."
-Deuteronomy 32:35

Now, the idea of turning the other cheek does NOT endorse that we cannot defend ourselves.  What it is truly conveying is that we should not seek conflict when it presents itself.    The phrase is not literal.  Because the righteous with Jehovah's approval can depend on his divine retribution, the attitude taken by true Christians can be adopted in confidence:

"A slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all..." PQ, 2 Timothy 2:24

So you are justified to DEFEND yourself if truly necessary, but not for the reason of pride.  Self-defense is looking out for your well being and your very life.  It's not retaliation, which is done out of pride:

"Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling."  -Proverbs 16:18
--------------

As for doing Biblical research on Google, with a random search, that's a negative.  I like to stick to trusted & educated sources rather than read from the mouths of strangers (John 10:16).  

Really, though, for the topic of Biblical contradictions you have to take into account a few things in all cases:

1) Is this (Greek/Hebrew) scripture differing from its counterpart do to a change in the Law Covenant (OT vs "Love" NT)?
2) Is this scripture due to cultural & ethnic principles that no longer apply today (as in the case with the scripture Rootsie pointed out about the hospitality and giving away of virgin daughters)?
3) Are the actual ideas in conflict?  Are they irreconcilable or is it merely a matter of rhetoric?

I encourage you to think more for yourself rather than depend on the research of other people (i.e., the google search).  Take the issues on your own and do the reading and critical thought rather than cipher the opinions of others.  Sometimes we do this without consciously realizing it, too; just look at the American public and the media (!).

peace be with you
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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
Ayinde
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2004, 10:33:50 AM »

My general comment

Anyone who is grounded in African history and culture will see how many proverbs in that book were taken out of their historical and cultural context and see how they can be misapplied.  
 
There was an underlying awareness of personal history and related values by the people who first realized those things that allowed the meaning to be internalized in their self, and not to be first directed towards an external persona.  
 
How these 'sayings' were packaged outside of their antecedents conditions people to live in hope of some external savior whom they may never recognize if or when it appears.  
 
The point is that there is a living being in everyone that can realize the source of its enlightenment, and can identify where help is available for him or her to come into such a divine source. But the development of this internal source, which can see for itself,was not appreciated or understood by those who took much from the African historical and social value systems and packaged them without giving the context from which they originated.  
 
Quote
I encourage you to think more for yourself rather than depend on the research of other people (i.e., the google search). Take the issues on your own and do the reading and critical thought rather than cipher the opinions of others. Sometimes we do this without consciously realizing it, too; just look at the American public and the media (!).
 
Here you ask others to think without considering other points of view through searches etc. But what you have failed to point out is that your whole presentation is based on taking from a body of work which presents the views of others.  I must add that this is how Christians usually try to engage a debate. It would be good if you demonstrate to us how you could have any view at all without considering the views of others.  
 
Anyhow that is not a major issue, as proving whether the Christian pet book is real or false is child's play to anyone with a fair understanding of African History.
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Bantu_Kelani
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2004, 02:16:21 PM »

Quote
...I actually know about the Tswa people ...The twa are the archetype for Bes...the Dwarf Neteru and the KMTians made i quite clear they derived their spiritual systems from 'up' the nile(the interior of Africa)...I thought I was starting from a point(KMT) hopefully more familiar to the previous posters...Sorry for my assumption...I was just asking about what the people prior to my posting thought about skipping over the (Bible) entirely(you are welcone to respond).

What bothers me a little is how this information is so readily available(especially on this site I've noticed) but us Africans insist on concentrating on the Bible? Isn't that allowing our current eur-centric/neo-colonial society to dominate even the spirituality we concentrate on?

I like your post and thanks for the links! One of my favorite sites is Africawithin. They have excellent info....what scares me is your very interesting posts...have very few responses!...which concerns me even more about us being 'stuck' in the Bible.



Welcome Oshun_Auset, I am glad that you have come up to post on Africaspeaks boards. I have always admired your effort to promote our traditional African religions and history on AfricaOnline boards. I read many of your posts there. Welcome again. I look forward to your positive contributions to the discussions here.

Concerning this thread, I can speak for the progressive Africans and myself and say that the many of the words we have spoken through our posts and replies have been to rise above a derivative theology and research our true history, which is far beyond the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions. The imperialistic religions have proven to be tools for pacification of our people. Although elements exist within the framework of these beliefs, to grow spiritually, the limitations prevent complete development. Thus our silence -mine certainly- in reaction to the numerous white liberal missionaries, self-proclaimed "authorities on Negro ideologies" whose primary goals in this community is to distort and mutilate what Black people truly believes and wishes to transmit. That's a clear example of their bigoted beliefs that seem rational to them not matter what we say. They don't have the decency to distance African ideologies from racist ideologies. Their bigoted beliefs are rational as they see it.  So, sometimes they may need to be given a good dose of disregard from us in a way in which they are deserved.

Bantu Kelani.
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We should first show solidarity with each other. We are Africans. We are black. Our first priority is ourselves.
Oshun_Auset
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2004, 03:22:14 PM »

Quote



Welcome Oshun_Auset, I am glad that you have come up to post on Africaspeaks boards. I have always admired your effort to promote our traditional African religions and history on AfricaOnline boards. I read many of your posts there. Welcome again. I look forward to your positive contributions to the discussions here.

Concerning this thread, I can speak for the progressive Africans and myself and say that the many of the words we have spoken through our posts and replies have been to rise above a derivative theology and research our true history, which is far beyond the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions. The imperialistic religions have proven to be tools for pacification of our people. Although elements exist within the framework of these beliefs, to grow spiritually, the limitations prevent complete development. Thus our silence -mine certainly- in reaction to the numerous white liberal missionaries, self-proclaimed "authorities on Negro ideologies" whose primary goals in this community is to distort and mutilate what Black people truly believes and wishes to transmit. That's a clear example of their bigoted beliefs that seem rational to them not matter what we say. They don't have the decency to distance African ideologies from racist ideologies. Their bigoted beliefs are rational as they see it.  So, sometimes they may need to be given a good dose of disregard from us in a way in which they are deserved.

Bantu Kelani.


Thank you for greeting me! Grin I'm surprised you know me from another board, I feel slightly famous...LOL...I've been reading this site for a while, I just never posted. The conversation is very advanced on most of the topics(which is good). I'm looking forward to giving whatever small contribution I can to the board, but I will probably spend most of my time learning from others. Once again, thank you for the warm welcome!

The missionaries came to Africa with the Bible and we had the land, now we have the Bible, and they have the land.

Forward, to a united Africa.
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Forward to a united Africa!
Tracey
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Rootsie.com


« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2004, 05:42:00 PM »

Quote
numerous white liberal missionaries, self-proclaimed "authorities on Negro ideologies" whose primary goals in this community is to distort and mutilate what Black people truly believes and wishes to transmit.


I must concur with that statement, as it is a very relevent point to be made...specifically with regards to "Africa Speaks."

Though all are welcome to contribute their views on these boards..it has become my learned understanding that it is for Africans to speak in authority about African related issues.. and not the other way around.

One can be quite learned through much study of books. But the bottom line is...it is only experience that can speak on behalf of itself, for itself with an authentic breath. Otherwise, it serves only to superimpose one's point of reference into an area where there are no legitimate experiences to back it up...head knowledge vs experiential knowledge IS quite a difference....(self determination)

Can Euro/White people comment on African/Black issues? Of course they can...but only from their own genuine reference point as it relates to them.

To me, that creates authentic dialogue between one another, offering the proper space and respect to say and speak what comes natural from each own's experience.

Of course this is only my opinion...and where I choose to speak from.
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out_of_Zion
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2004, 06:08:21 PM »

Ayinde:
"Here you ask others to think without considering other points of view through searches etc. But what you have failed to point out is that your whole presentation is based on taking from a body of work which presents the views of others.  I must add that this is how Christians usually try to engage a debate. It would be good if you demonstrate to us how you could have any view at all without considering the views of others."

True enough.  One could argue that EVERYTHING is based on something pre-existing it (from physical inventions, to theology, to literature), so I get your point.

But the basis of the conversation between haileempero r & I WAS the Bible, specifically scriptural contradictions, therefore it should be the source.  And there should be no other source.  And what I am disapproving of is the reliance on others to deliver a theological stance & opinion.  It's what leads to the blind following that many in religion are guilty of - the lack of questioning and critical thought for oneself.  Usually, when doing biblical research, the only knowledge I really want outside of the scriptures themselves is historical knowledge regarding the accounts.  I prefer to interpret the scriptures through my own spirit and understanding not those of another...

There's enough followers in this world.  You get my point.
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Therefore, become imitators of JAH, as beloved children - Ephesians 5:1
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